|Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Isabel Windeatt||8/27/13 3:36 AM|
Does anyone know what the pil-gss wakelock is? It has been preventing my nexus 7 (2013) from going into deep sleep since I first got it last week and seems to be something to do with the Android OS which is showing up in my battery stats as using 80% of the power.
Do I just have to wait for another Android update to fix this issue?
|Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Rodrigo Ramirez||8/27/13 8:10 PM|
I am having the same problem, but haven't got any response, what did you do?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||LY Tan||8/28/13 5:59 AM|
I hope that someone from Google can really take a look at this and try to resolve the issue. I have been searching over the web and not get any decent info.
This bug completely ruins any use-case for the tablet. If it is a hardware issue, please let us know so that we can send it for servicing or something.
The support for this issue has been very disappointing.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Rodrigo Ramirez||8/28/13 6:08 AM|
I agree with that. Tough in my case I won't be able to return my tablet. I just hope it's software. As a temporal workaround I turn of my tablet when I'm not using it
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Isabel Windeatt||8/28/13 6:33 AM|
There doesn't seem to be any solutions about at the moment. I tried doing a factory reset and starting from scratch last night but still have the same issue today. The entire time it's been on pil-gss is running (I've attached a screenshot from BetterBatteryStats). Maybe we'll just have to wait for Android 5.0 and hope that fixes it, and in the meantime keep a charger handy. :(
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Isabel Windeatt||8/28/13 6:35 AM|
Oh and I realise on that screenshot it says pil-gss has only been running 12 mins, but that's what it looks like all the time (I'd just charged it again)
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Rodrigo Ramirez||8/28/13 7:27 AM|
Those are the exact same results I have on betterbatterystats. I even tried custom roms and kernels and that didn't fix the issue. I'm pretty bothered by this type of issues coming from a nexus device. I'm sure that if I bough a cheap plastic Galaxy tab I would last 2 years without problems
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||LY Tan||8/28/13 7:51 AM|
Yep, same here. It seems like it's not a widespread issue. I'm a little concerned it may be a hardware issue. Looking at the codebase, pil-gss seems to have something to do with the processor.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Paul||8/28/13 11:21 AM|
This is a new one for me. Can you try starting your device in safe mode (instructions and info here) and leaving it in safe mode for a few hours to test if any app you've installed is causing the problem? If you don't experience the problem while in safe mode that's a good indication that an app you've installed is the source of your issue.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Rodrigo Ramirez||8/28/13 11:39 AM|
From my part, I tried starting it on safe mode and the bug was still present. I factory reset it and left it on al 100% at the start screen and woke up to 80% so it's not app related. If it helps it is a kernel wake lock and from what I've read it has to do with the use port or a PROXY fail or something like that. By the way, thanks Paul for answering
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Isabel Windeatt||8/28/13 12:04 PM|
I'm checking in safe mode now and I'll post again in a couple of hours but at the moment im expecting my results will be the same as I also tried the factory reset and tested without any other apps installed. But thanks for the help :-) if you have any more suggestions I'd be interested to hear them
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Isabel Windeatt||8/28/13 2:22 PM|
Just an update, I still have the pil-gss wakelock in safe mode too :( Any more advice?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||LY Tan||8/28/13 5:23 PM|
Safe mode doesn't help.
Just to summarise what I have tried so far.
1) Safe mode
2) Factory reset
3) Factory reset, then do not sign in to Google
4) Airplane mode
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Tony Maro||8/29/13 4:41 AM|
I hate posting me too posts, but me too. My tablet just plain never goes to sleep and pil-gss is listed as holding a kernel wakelock that prevents it. My standby time is about 20 hours while my 2012 version gets 3 days or more. Not sure if this was the case prior to the Android update or not.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||LY Tan||8/29/13 5:29 AM|
After some thinking, I was wondering if we can narrow down to either a batch or configuration that exhibits the problem. Perhaps Paul can give us some tips on identifying which batch our tablets are from and we can see if we can find a commonality.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Rodrigo Ramirez||8/29/13 6:03 AM|
I hope so. I'm pretty sure that its software related but I don't know how will they release a fix for all the devices if just some of them have this problem. I hope Paul can track down the cause and give us a solution
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Tony Maro||8/29/13 7:03 AM|
Someone mentioned a case so I even took mine out of the folio case with the magnetic lid just to be sure, but the wakelock continues. I also bring my N7 to work every day and the wakelock continues at home, work and in transit (without wireless) so it's not related to my specific wifi situation as I have two different wifi networks, one very open and the other very secure. I can't imagine it's because something is blocking access to a proxy. Not to mention as someone already said, it does it in airplane mode as well.
I keep my GPS, bluetooth and NFC disabled since I don't use them. I charge it with the provided charger.
My battery meter is showing about 5% per hour of battery lost in the past hour, and nearly all of it going to Android OS while the tablet sat with the screen off doing nothing.
I'm 100% positive this didn't happen when I first got the device. When I purchased it I immediately unlocked and rooted it, and didn't have trouble. This appears to have started after I installed the factory image JSS15Q, then re-rooted - obviously by hand since OTA won't work on an unlocked device.
Since it took me a week or so to get the case I wanted I made sure to test it back in the original case to ensure it wasn't the magnetic sensor somehow causing it. It wasn't the case.
cat /proc/wakelocks shows (for just pil-gss over last hour):
name count expire_count wake_count active_since total_time sleep_time max_time last_change
"pil-gss" 2915 0 0 0 3234574605495 2846462394352 1619964597 3491380943896
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Tony Maro||8/29/13 8:33 AM|
Just an FYI - I still had JSS15J lying around so I flashed back to it and wiped all cache / data. Still has the wakelock problem.
I wish I had a full factory image of the JWR66N to test. I'm positive when I was running JWR66N (the first emergency update after shipping to correct the devel keys) that I didn't have this issue.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Matt de Neef||8/29/13 10:18 AM|
Did JSS15Q make updates to firmware on the N7 that aren't changed when rolling back builds or factory resetting? I'm also getting the wakelocks but before the JSS15Q update I was easily achieving 2 days battery with 10hrs screen on time, and consistently, based on my usage patterns and device settings. Its definitely software from where I'm standing, I could stand corrected.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Carla dG||8/29/13 11:52 AM|
I have JWR66Y on my Nexus 32GB, 3G now. And in about 20 hrs the battery lost 80% of it's power staying in standby modus only. After installing this 2nd Android 4.3 update earlier this week on my Nexus 7 (3g) this battery drainage has been introduced on my device. Before installing the last update, everything was fine. After stand-by during the night, 7 hrs later, the battery has decreased with 30%! The day before within 24 hrs it was empty, without actually having used the tablet.
Furthermore, since the last update, 3G is not working anymore. I don't get the unlock screen for the card after startup. Force enable won't work. When trying to activate in Settings - Mobile networks, that choice crashed and wants to send a report.
It's not my T-mobile card, since that works in another device.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Tony Maro||8/29/13 12:36 PM|
The other tidbit I'll add to this discussion is that rmt_storage is constantly spewing things in the logcat and says it's grabbing / releasing wakelocks. It never seems to stop:
I/rmt_storage( 189): rmt_storage_rw_iovec_cb: /boot/modem_fs1: clnt_h=0x63d6: req_h=0xe8f8 msg_id=3: R/W request received
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||LY Tan||8/30/13 3:04 AM|
I don't remember having this problem on the firmware the tablet shipped with too. But I was only using it for a short while.
If we could flashed back to that, perhaps we can test and hopefully help to identify the cause of the issue.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Rodrigo Ramirez||8/30/13 4:21 AM|
Yeah me too. But I actually updated to jss15j and the device was fine, then suddenly one night I left it at 100 and woke up to 80% and the tablet was very hot. It never deep sleeped again
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||francesc_||8/31/13 4:03 PM|
This is also happening with my Nexus 7. The tablet doesn't enter the deep sleep mode. I also reflashed the last factory image to see if it'd help to solve the issue, but it persists – with any 3rd-party app installed.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||exspectator||8/31/13 7:52 PM|
Also having this exact issue. My tablet hasn't gone into deep sleep since I got it, leaking power overnight with Android OS as the cause. Better battery stats also seemingly points to pil-gss. Rather frustrating.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Carla dG||9/1/13 5:25 AM|
I turned off GPS, and that helped a bit in the performance, but had no trouble with it before the update. Wifi was enabled the whole time. This resulted in after 10 hrs standby: battery drain of 23%.
Didn't see the baseband_xmm_power process anymore, but saw a new one powerManagerService.WakeLocks: 1hr 13 mins. However, since I had no problems before I installed the 2nd small update of Android 4.3 (JWR66Y) I don't know which processes did run before the Nexus experencied this battery drainage/ 3G not working.
And the disturbing thing: awake 100% = 10 hrs; 0 deep sleep.
So today I did a Factory reset to see if this would fix things. I Was postponing this, since it'll take time to setup things again as I like them to be setup.
Anyways, 3G is working again. And now it's been awake 33%; the rest is deep sleep. I hope everything is ok now again, but will monitor things.
|(unknown)||9/1/13 7:38 PM||<This message has been deleted.>|
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||LY Tan||9/1/13 9:13 PM|
Can I just clarify? Is this for the new Nexus 7 and you used to have the pil-gss bug?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||JordanKZ||9/1/13 11:26 PM|
Another me too post. Pil-gss running for 7 hours overnight rather then letting the device enter deep sleep. Running JSS15Q.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Isabel Windeatt||9/2/13 1:26 AM|
I have the access to my location switched off and still have the pil-gss bug.
So do anyone think that the few of us are alone in having this bug, or do you think it's more widespread and that people just haven't realised that it's a wakelock issue?
Is there any way to contact Android directly to get an answer on what could fix this?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||exspectator||9/2/13 1:57 AM|
There is seemingly nothing that fixes this in terms of GPS/WIFI/apps including factory resets and safe mode. No matter what, 'Android OS' - or pil-gss is the biggest consumer of battery and the tablet never ever sleeps. I'm fairly confident those two people above had a different wakelock issue related to Google services or some such.
I'm really keen to find out soon whether it is hardware or software related so know whether to return my (otherwise flawless) tablet. I'm sure some others have the same issue but it does take a while of messing around with battery apps and settings to narrow it down to this process.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Rodrigo Ramirez||9/2/13 7:15 AM|
Not even custom kernels and roms fixed it. I am 99.9999% sure that it's software related like the wireless charger wake lock on the nexus 4. I am feeling disappointed of Google because I thought I would get good support buying a nexus device
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||francesc_||9/2/13 2:21 PM|
I've also tried to disable location access, but didn't solve it. I assume Carla dG is refering to the 2012 Nexus 7, because that build is only available to the 2012 Nexus 7.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Graham Pittman||9/2/13 7:03 PM|
+1 on the new Nexus 7 pil-gss wakelock issue. As if this wasn't enough, I also have a random reboot issue. Very frustrating! Running JSS15Q,if that helps... Where are you Google?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Paul||9/3/13 1:02 PM|
We've just opened up an official Nexus Forum, and the Mobile Help Forum has been switched to read-only. I've moved this thread into the new Nexus Forum where the discussion can continue.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||LY Tan||9/3/13 7:48 PM|
I think I will bring it back to Asus for them to have a look this weekend. I have tried everything I can and I guess it's the only remaining logical step.
Paul, any advice on your end? Thanks!
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Rodrigo Ramirez||9/3/13 8:13 PM|
Please report back to see what Asus said or did. Tough I'm stuck with my nexus I hope I can someday fix it, or maybe 4.4 KitKat can :)
|(unknown)||9/3/13 8:13 PM||<This message has been deleted.>|
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||francesc_||9/5/13 9:09 AM|
Well, I've found a solution for y'all. The wakelock problem is due to the process Tony Maro mentioned, which is rmt_storage, that is constantly. The accompaning message on kmsg is the following:
<3>[ 159.279266] SMSM: Modem SMSM state changed to SMSM_RESET.
The solution I found is stopping the rmt_storage service.
To do that, you need to root your device and execute (it's just untily you reboot):
I'm using Script Manager - SManager from the Play Store to automate the process as root on every boot.
I'm not quite sure what this process does, however, according to CodeAurora, it has to do with modem filesystem updates:
Targets such as 7x30 use an eMMC card as its primary storage device eliminating the usage of NAND. The SD controller and the card are accessible only by Apps processor. Modem has to depend on apps processor for updating modem file system partition in the card. This software module provides the implementation of the RPC client to service requests from modem when modem file system partition needs to be updated.
I don't know which modem it refers. Everything basic that I use is working, so it isn't the Wifi modem. I haven't checked if it may affect GPS or Bluetooth. If you find it affects, just restore the original file you modified and reboot the tablet.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Rodrigo Ramirez||9/5/13 9:37 AM|
OMG it worked thanks soooo much!!!! Now that we know what is the cause maybe Google can fx it permanently . one question, how do I automatize the process on smanager?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||JordanKZ||9/5/13 10:11 AM|
Seems to be working here too. Thanks for that.
Maybe I can go through a night without my battery collapsing.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||LY Tan||9/5/13 5:23 PM|
This is great news! I will try it when I get home from work tonight.
Since it's related to the modem, I suspect that Google is using the same code base for both the wifi and lte version of this tablet. Since our wifi version doesn't have the lte modem, it may be causing problems.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||exspectator||9/5/13 11:13 PM|
This sounds very promising. So now the device actually sleeps and 'Android OS' drops right down in battery usage?
I'm a bit wary about rooting my Nexus right now (bit of a hassle to learn how/warranty concerns), but excellent work narrowing this down.
I assume there will be an official bugfix quite soon, Paul?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||LY Tan||9/6/13 1:12 AM|
Erm... As much as I'm optimistic it will be sorted out soon. I doubt it's so straightforward to fix the code and roll out the changes. It will probably take some time.
In the meantime, rooting probably your best bet.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||elan sablich||9/6/13 2:40 PM|
Would you be able to explain how exactly you disabled the rmt_storage service (pardon me, I'm a bit of a noob). I'm already rooted, I'm just not sure the exact steps to stop the service. I wanted to give this a try before I go through the arduous process of returning the device since it's dropping +30% overnight.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||LY Tan||9/7/13 7:49 PM|
Hi, you will have to root the device first. You can find the instructions on how to do it here: http://www.redmondpie.com/unlock-bootloader-and-root-nexus-7-2013-on-android-4.3-how-to-tutorial/
If you are wondering how to get into usb debugging, go to about tablet and tap on the build number J55XXX many times till you get into developer mode, then back up one level and you will see developer options in the settings menu.
Then, run the commands that francesc_ said using your compute while the tablet is plugged in. And your device should be able to go to sleep from then on.
IMPORTANT NOTE: the rooting process will wipe out all your data. Pls backup before doing it!
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Tony Maro||9/9/13 11:19 AM|
I'll confirm that after 20 hours of running idle after stopping this process my tablet barely used any battery and showed 20 hours of deep sleep.
Awesome! At least there's a workaround for the technically inclined until Google can fix it for everyone.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||tomcat2||9/10/13 3:17 AM|
This fix works on and off for me, worked for about 6 hours yesterday then wakelock was back (this is without reboot)
Just retrying now but won't work
Come on Google
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||JordanKZ||9/10/13 11:29 AM|
I just realised something. When you run the stop rmt_storage command... it actually kills WiFi N for me. Well, at least 5ghz WiFi, which my N network is on. I didn't even realise because I have a backup 2.4ghz B/G network.
Anyone else noticed that? So it might be the WiFi driver...?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Tony Maro||9/10/13 11:41 AM|
I just double checked and I am definitely still connecting with N with rmt_storage stopped, however my AP is on 2.4 GHz because of a couple of Winblows laptops here that don't reliably connect on anything else.
You may have another issue there, though.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||tomcat2||9/10/13 11:53 AM|
Sorry my last post was not quite correct, the stop rmt_storage fix has and does remove the pil-gss wakelock. But for some reason I'm still getting random non deep sleeps which I can't yet figure out why.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||JordanKZ||9/10/13 11:55 AM|
Tried turning off GPS in location settings?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||tomcat2||9/10/13 11:56 AM|
Yeah all the usual suspects
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||iFENG||9/10/13 8:51 PM|
Mail to ASUS support center, they proposed me to send it back to check if it's defected and maybe replaced with a new one.
Google/ASUS should have a recall for all victims, at least not hide important information on hardware defection.
Come on google and asus, are you listen to nexus community and pretend to ignore us?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Amaterasu25||9/16/13 8:22 PM|
My nexus 7 (just 2 weeks old) is also having deep sleep issues.I lost around 15% every night and decided to turn it off when not being used.I kept it off for a few nights,turned on only when I had to use it.Yesterday,I accidentally left it switched on,and when I checked today morning,it had finally entered deep sleep and lost just 1% charge.I wonder what made it happen.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Matt Redfearn||9/17/13 12:30 AM|
I bought my dad a Nexus 7 for his birthday - and it is also exhibiting this issue, draining to 10% in around 20 hours standby. Battery monitor just identifies "AndroidOS" and BetterBatteryStats shows the pil_gss wakelock. If it were my own device I would not have a problem rooting it and disabling the rmt_storage service, but I am reluctant to do that on his, and am hoping that there will be a firmware update to fix this soon - any other suggestions?
Very disappointed that a brand new Nexus device shows this kind of behavior - especially since I fought it's corner against the iPad mini my brothers wanted to get him :-( Come on Google, sort it out!
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||JordanKZ||9/17/13 12:41 AM|
Well, a new update is being pushed out now... Might be the solution we've been waiting for:
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Sameh Mohamed||9/17/13 7:30 AM|
francesc_ thanks a lot for the fix and i am wondering can you upload the script so that i won't have to redo the steps on each reboot?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||JordanKZ||9/17/13 10:38 AM|
Just a quick update for everyone.
The latest Android update (JSS15R) does NOT fix this problem. I turned off my automated Tasker script on boot, rebooted and left the device for thirty minutes. Pil-gss took control over my battery life once again and drained it 4% within 30 minutes...
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Adam Parsons||9/17/13 12:14 PM|
Can you provide instructions on the boot script to turn off pil-gss? don't want to have to connect my PC to adb shell the command every time. I would be very thankful.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||tomcat2||9/18/13 12:01 AM|
Yes can confirm update JSS15R does not fix, I lost 22% in 8 hours no deep sleep.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Adam Parsons||9/18/13 12:23 AM|
After upgrading, not OTA (once again thanks Google, not), to R, I left it overnight. Lost 13% in 8 hrs.
Nobody has been able to post the script on boot up to stop this process (can it really be done, my last hope), and Google have done and said nothing.
Both mine and my wife's are going back for a refund tomorrow.
Back to Apple we go....very disappointed.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||elan sablich||9/18/13 6:26 AM|
Here are the directions I used to create a script on boot to stop the process - this site describes the process/app you'll need, just adapt the script accordingly. The script should be:
Also, you'll need to be rooted.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Adam Parsons||9/18/13 7:50 AM|
Thank you so much. I'll try this first. They have agreed to ship a replacement (my wife's seems to drain less) tomorrow.
Still very surprised at the lack of support though. Really appreciate the posting though, cheers!
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Chris Brandstrom||9/19/13 7:29 AM|
Same here. I just did the update and can confirm no change. Still no deep sleep at all.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||exspectator||9/20/13 8:10 PM|
Yeah, seeing the update come through got my hopes up but nooope. I guess I'll just have to do the root fix when I have some spare time.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Amaterasu25||9/21/13 12:48 AM|
The wakelock issue got fixed for me out of the blue( I made no attempt to fix it and had my n7 turned off when not in use ),and for a week it showed no signs of drain and made me adore my n7 .Today,I received that 8 MB JSS15R update,and voila,the wakelock is back !!!! When will this get fixed for good??
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||JordanKZ||9/21/13 12:52 AM|
Android 4.4 is probably a month or so out. I'm pretty sure we're not going to see another 4.3 build for the N7 2013 that fixes this. In the mean time, scripting or manually typing this into a terminal is basically your only option.
To be honest, it doesn't seem like many Googlers actually read these boards. They seem more of a self help tool. We might have to kick up a fuss on Google+, which to be honest... We shouldn't have to do.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Dexter McDew||9/23/13 9:53 AM|
Hey guys, I got the same issue. Got mine from play. Are you all sure this isnt a hardware issue?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Rodrigo Ramirez||9/23/13 11:55 AM|
It's not hardware because the root fix solutions it
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Dexter McDew||9/23/13 12:53 PM|
Alright. Thanks. This stop command seems to work.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||elan sablich||9/24/13 7:39 AM|
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||LY Tan||9/24/13 6:47 PM|
Hi, as usual, have you tried to see what's the wakelock?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||LY Tan||9/24/13 6:49 PM|
I'm not that sure that this is the case. It can be the case that one of the non-essential hardware hooks is screwing up. Even after using the stop command, my personal experience is that the standby time is still a lot lower than that reported in reviews. How long can yours last in standby?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Dexter McDew||9/25/13 6:40 AM|
just fyi,standby after using the fix is great.
|Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Alexthearmo||9/25/13 7:51 AM|
Seriously Google, please fix this. Android OS has 20 hours of wake time out of 24 hours the tablet has been on (almost no actual use). Fix this! It's unacceptable! I have the same exact problem on my nexus 4. Battery drains way too fast. Fix!!
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||LY Tan||9/25/13 8:00 AM|
Maybe we have different expectations... How long can a full battery last on standby?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Alexthearmo||9/25/13 8:08 AM|
Before the wakelock started occuring Nexus 7 would last between 3 and 4 days. Now, about 1 1/2 days with light use.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Dexter McDew||9/25/13 9:22 AM|
3 to 4 days max.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Tony Maro||9/25/13 10:09 AM|
Yep, with the root hack fix in place I can go 3+ days with moderate usage (no games or videos).
Without, it required charging nightly. This is pretty sad - we had one comment from a Google employee above and he's never returned to ask for any clarifications or even say if he can reproduce it.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||LY Tan||9/25/13 3:52 PM|
Looks like we are pretty much on our own for this. Can I just check? I have just updated to the latest build. Does that mean I will have to root the device again?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Tony Maro||9/26/13 6:51 AM|
Updating removes root, but that's easy to restore. I updated yesterday and like everyone else, it didn't fix the problem - as soon as it booted the rmt_storage service was running wild.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||tomcat2||9/26/13 7:26 AM|
Maybe, we should return all affected n7's.
They might take notice of it then.
The part I don't like is the no response or statement from Google confirming its a known bug.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Matt Redfearn||9/26/13 7:30 AM|
That was certainly the approach I took - mine went back for a replacement unit. So far the replacement has not demonstrated the bug, and has been deep sleeping fine, even with all of the same Android updates, to JSS15R, and the same apps installed. I know it is unlikely to be a hardware issue, but there must be something causing the bug to manifest on some devices and not others...
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||iFENG||9/26/13 9:33 PM|
Yes we should act, or Google/ASUS will not react.
I've sent my defected n7 back to asus support center in japan 2 weeks ago, absolutely no response for 10 days until I wrote to them again. Their engineers seemed knowing nothing about the issue (pil-gss holding wakelock persistently), and said need another couple of days to test its battery. Are they prejudice or just ignorant of such widespread facts?
Hiding information, google you can not call yourself "DO NO EVIL".
Amazon Japan announced "suspending sale of Nexus 7(2013) WIFI 16G in suspect of defection".
(Since Sep. 21, up to today Sep. 27)
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Sanjay Gulati N7||10/4/13 9:50 AM|
i am also facing the same problem, does anyone have any solution??
tried changing settings=>wifi=>advanced=>scanning always available to off alongwith changing keep wifi on during sleep to never, the battery life increased but still cpu not going in deep sleep mode
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||iFENG||10/7/13 6:55 PM|
Does pil-gss wakelock issue due to a buggy GPS hardware?
KaniCha-Han has reported on a Japanese user review site that he found android kernel source code implying pill-gss due to GPS subsystem.
(read more on http://bbs.kakaku.com/bbs/K0000566228/Page=3/SortRule=1/#16678148)
Does anyone have any idea? Or how can we report to Google?
Here is it: https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/msm/+/android-msm-mako-3.4-jb-mr2/arch/arm/mach-msm/Kconfig
config MSM_PIL bool "Peripheral image loading" select FW_LOADER default n help Some peripherals need to be loaded into memory before they can be brought out of reset. Say yes to support these devices....config MSM_PIL_GSS tristate "GSS (Coretx A5) Boot Support" depends on MSM_PIL help Support for booting and shutting down Cortex A5 processors which run GPS subsystem firmware.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||manu1212||10/7/13 10:32 PM|
i have the same problem with my nexus 7 (pil-gss) wakelock, and my gps modul is not working.
So I send my nexus back to asus service and they repair it, yesterday I got back and now it works.
They changed the main board. I think that the gps modul was the reason for the pil-gss wakelock.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||iFENG||10/7/13 11:32 PM|
Thank you for your reply. It is very useful.
I have sent my defected Nexus 7(2013) to ASUS support center in Japan,
but they could not figure out the problem and claimed it was OK according to the technical spec (sh*t!).
It's almost 4 weeks that I still cannot get my nexus 7 back, though no repair or replacement.
I will ask them again to check my Nexus 7!
If anybody has the same problem, please try to contact ASUS support center.
And it is very helpful if you have a report whether your Nexus being fixed or not.
LET'S HELP EACH OTHER.
Google/ASUS should not hide such important information and dodge their responsibility.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Nathan Price||10/8/13 8:31 PM|
Just wondering when a Google rep is going to report on this. It's a big problem that seems to get little attention from the seller. Slowly losing faith...
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||iFENG||10/8/13 9:28 PM|
I bought my defected Nexus 7 2013 from a local retailer not Google Play, but local Asus support center offered no help at all.
Can anybody who bought from Google Play call for Google technical support team?
Let them know that battery draining fast maybe connected with buggy GPS module.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Bryan Gianninoto||10/9/13 3:23 PM|
I got mine from Amazon. Nexus 7 2013, Wifi only, 32GB, Android 4.3, Build No. JSS15R. My GPS works and I still get the pil-gss wakelock. The tablet never enters deep sleep.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||iFENG||10/9/13 4:34 PM|
My nexus 7 2013 was back home yesterday, no replacement no repaire for more than 4weeks staying in asus support center in japan.
I tested GPS in morning, and confirmed GPS module not work at all. I have to send to support center again. Really annoyed.
Screenshots is here:
Hey, I am now in Japan not India(? somewhere forbidden?)
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Bryan Gianninoto||10/9/13 6:54 PM|
iFENG, does GPS positioning work in Google maps? I think maybe this AndroiTS app does not yet work with the new nexus 7. I noticed the same thing in the "GPS Status" app. But Google maps works well.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||iFENG||10/9/13 7:13 PM|
I don't think GPS working well in Google Map for my Nexus 7 2013. But Google Map can use WiFi to assist positioning (so called A-GPS), and Google Map maybe just keep a memory of you latest position for a while even you turn of your WiFi and A-GPS (in Location Settings) off.
I have found a YouTube video (at around 1:00) showing AndroiTS GPS Test working well with Nexus 7 2013.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||nexus7problems||10/10/13 5:37 AM|
Having the same problem now.Android is using 45% battery with pil-gss keeping the device awake for 7 hours during the night.This is the second 2013 nexus I've owned so far,the first one had to be returned for touchscreen issues but I experienced great battery life...That is while it was working.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||iFENG||10/10/13 7:07 AM|
If you have pil-gas wakelock problem, go outdoor to check GPS right now.
Google Map will use WiFi to assist positioning, and even able to remember your latest found position, so that even without GPS working you can still locate yourself.
You should use AndroiTS GPS Test or similar app, which can display details on how GPS works. My n7 2013 could receive no signal from any satellite at all, definitely dead.
I will send it back to asus support center again.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Tony Maro||10/10/13 8:18 AM|
I will confirm that I DO HAVE the wakelock problem (workaround using root to stop the offending service,) however I DO NOT HAVE the GPS problem. I tested with AndroiTS and it locked on quickly, even from inside my building where I can't even receive FM radio signals.
I also tested Google Maps with wifi off and it locked on (after complaining about wifi) just fine.
So, the problems, from my perspective at least, are completely separate.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Dexter McDew||10/10/13 8:32 AM|
I had that issue,only the wakelock, and not the GPS problem. With the terminal command work around, this was solved and I get up to 4 days standby time, (or) 2 days battery cycle on moderate usage with 8.5 hours of On screen time, on my N72013. This is after unlocking and rooting it.
Google really needs to respond to this stuff. If the employees are paid for support and customer service, why the fuck aren't they responding to the comments?
I have really lost my trust in Google,after this prevailing incident of ignorance. Fucking assholes.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||iFENG||10/10/13 3:08 PM|
All I can say pil-gss wakelock is a mystery if Google/Asus continue to keep ignorant on this issue. Android kernel source code implies connection between pil-gss and GPS. I did not rooted or teared down my n7 2013 to solve it because I still need the warranty though it is a joke.
We paid for the hardware/software which turned out to be defecient. We also paid for the after service which turned to be reponsiveless. But now we consumer have to investigate by ourself.
There are now over 3000 posts complaining Nexus 7 2013 flaws on a 2ch thread (2ch is a popular online forum in japan which provides anonymous comment service). Since I bought nexus 7 from a local retailer not Google Play, I can only ask for Asus for help but they always told me it is not a problem. How can anyone report to Google directly not this OFFICAL Google Products Forum. I doubt there is any Google employee keep an eye here.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Bryan Gianninoto||10/10/13 4:54 PM|
AndroiTS loads for me as long as I have aGPS enabled. However I get no locks on any satellites and when I uncheck aGPS (second checkbox option on setup screen for location services), I get the same WAIT status as iFENG. I've only tested indoors so far and I live in NYC - probably not the best location to test from. I will test outside over the weekend and see if that gives me any locks.
I'm so tired of losing 45% of my battery overnight whenever I forget to leave it plugged in!
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Bryan Gianninoto||10/10/13 5:02 PM|
Oh I almost forgot, there is an additional topic (1,000+ posts) about GPS not working. However a lot of these issues seemed to be fixed with the JSS15Q build release.
Is there an actual google moderator on these forums? I see some occasional responses from some dude "Paul", but they seem spread out thinner than butter on toast at the local diner.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||iFENG||10/22/13 8:34 PM|
Finally, I have got my N7 2013 repaired by changing its mother board. It took me 42 DAYs long, twice negotiating with ASSus support center.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Daniel_S.||10/22/13 8:45 PM|
How can anyone report to Google directly not this OFFICAL Google Products Forum. I doubt there is any Google employee keep an eye here.
I think there are still some Google-affiliated people browsing those forums but since they have nothing new to report and would simply get an earful from showing up, they are simply abstaining from doing so since they have nothing new to contribute... no point in taking the heat for something they cannot do more than they have already done; namely: report confirmed issues to higher-ups and try to collect data from people willing and able to contribute.
I have been asked to provide logs for problems I have seen on my N7-2013s a few times but by the time I was asked, I had already made up my mind about returning the devices and did not bother responding.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Bryan Gianninoto||10/23/13 11:55 AM|
Thanks iFENG, I am experiencing the exact issues as you described and I am now convinced that no software will fix. I have already tried factory reset, no apps, safe mode, latest 4.3 update, another factory reset, etc and the issue persists. I should note that I was using a magnetic case -- I'm not sure if the magnet would affect the gps unit but I stopped using it because I noticed it made the compass go haywire. Looks like I need to go through the Asus warranty replacement, and I am not looking forward to that.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Bryan Gianninoto||10/29/13 2:42 PM|
Regarding tomcat2 's suggestion to stop rmt_storage, I recently stumbled upon this thread on xda from back in 2011 that has some extra steps after stopping rmt_storage, regarding physically wiping the partitions that hold the efs data. This might have some merit if the partitions are somehow becoming corrupt, and Android OS is continuously trying to read/write to these blocks. I'm completely speculating here, but I wonder if the addition of TRIM support that was added to jellybean 4.3 is messing with these partitions in a bad way?
Since Google has nothing for us on this (which is fine by me I guess -- it's not very nice, but they are under no obligation to support the community which they helped establish) and when I have some free time, I'm going to go ahead and void my warranty and give this a try on my 2013 Nexus 7 and see if I have any luck. I'm especially in no rush to deal with ASUS on this. The irony of the situation is I don't even want GPS. I don't need it -- it's not what I use my tablet for! For my use, it's just an unnecessary perk. I would be perfectly happy if I had a non-working GPS as long as my freaking battery wasn't leaking.
FWIW, no issues whatsoever with my 2012 N7.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Bryan Gianninoto||11/1/13 12:36 PM|
Update: I got my GPS to work and pil-gss wakelock is gone, at least for now. I very much took the "gung-ho" approach with this, but I'll do my best to summarize what steps I took.
First attempt: Fail
I did a fresh install of stock Android 4.3. I then unlocked the bootloader which let me push up temporary superuser access, and then installed Wakelock Detector and GPS Test. I left it unplugged overnight and saw pil-gss kernel wakelock eat up almost 40% of the battery (I was a heavy sleeper that night, unlike my tablet) with 0% deep sleep. So I the issued "stop rmt_storage" command (as su) in the console, cleared AGPS data using the GPS Test App (under settings) and then let it sit for another few hours on battery. Interestingly, the pil-gss wakelock was completely released, but then I had a CPU wakelock that was running under "Android System" called GpsLocationProvider that was also preventing it from going into deep sleep. I rebooted a few times and repeated these steps with the same results.
Second attempt: Success
I decided to try another ROM and went with cyanogenmod. The first feature that I noticed was on the quick launch pulldown -- a toggle for GPS. It was greyed out, and clicking it didn't seem to toggle anything. I figured this was just a visual representation of the bigger underlying problem I was having. I went and re-installed Wakelock Detector and GPS Test, then I checked the battery details and noticed an application called "cLock" (must be specific to this custom ROM), which was burning more juice than Android OS (Android OS was still a very close second). I went in and force stopped cLock, and then issued "stop rmt_storage" in the console, and voila! pil-gss wakelock was released and GpsLocationProvider wakelock did not kick in. This was the first time I ever noticed my tablet entering deep sleep mode. I was psyched, however I was still limited to only assisted GPS. After a few reboots, my feeling of triumph went back to a feeling of dismay since I followed these same steps only to find I couldn't reproduce the results, and I was back to being stuck with the same wakelock symptoms I was dealing with from the stock jellybean install.
So out of curiosity, I plugged it in to the wall charger first. Then I cleared aGPS data using GPS Test, rebooted, killed cLock, and did "stop rmt_storage" as su. After following these steps, all while plugged in, I actually noticed the GPS icon show up on the left side of the status bar! I opened up GPS test and waited a few seconds and satellites started locking. What's even better -- the tablet is going to deep sleep!
It's only been today so far, but I've rebooted a few times already and am having no issues whatsoever with the GPS or with the wakelocks. I haven't needed to run the "stop rmt_storage" command either. So the fix seems to be permanent -- meaning once the GPS kicks on, the wakelock issues iron themselves out. I feel like the GPS was maybe relying on some data on the device (via rmt_storage) that it couldn't access for some reason, but there also seems to be a factor regarding the power state, whether the device is plugged in or running on battery. So while I can't isolate which pieces out of all of my attempts actually contributed to the fix, it seems like there's a few different things going on here. I'm just glad I don't have to go through Asus to get a warranty replacement. I even feel confident that I could go back to stock Android now and not experience the wakelock issue, but I think I am going to run cyanogenmod for a bit and see how it does over the next week or two just make sure these wakelock issues don't creep their way back in.
|Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Rodrigo Ramirez||11/1/13 2:26 PM|
Update. The 4.4 update DOES FIX THE WAKELOCK PROBLEM. just tried an AOSP rom 4.4 Kitkat
|Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||JordanKZ||11/1/13 2:31 PM|
Holy crap. You're kidding?! That's great!
|Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Rodrigo Ramirez||11/1/13 2:36 PM|
I'm serious haha. I Tried a rom that came out and was wondering how would it fix it and bam I downloaded cpu spy and it did enter on deep sleep! Without the stop rmt. So the update will be here anytime next week. Good look to all because maybe it will not work on all devices though I hope so
|Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Rodrigo Ramirez||11/1/13 2:36 PM|
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Bryan Gianninoto||11/1/13 2:48 PM|
Excellent! Where did you grab the 4.4 ROM from?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Rodrigo Ramirez||11/1/13 2:52 PM|
Its a ROM created by the Paranoid Android Team, but it has various bugs and because it's based on the nexus 5 things like the launcher are not avibable. So I recommend waiting for the official update. If you are rooted you will need to flash the factory image
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Bryan Gianninoto||11/1/13 3:04 PM|
Gotcha, thanks -- I'm just happy I have a solution for now, but also looking forward to see what 4.4 brings to the table esp. now that I can start using this thing. I'll wait for the official.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||tomcat2||11/4/13 3:56 AM|
4.4 now let's mine deep sleep with out the stop command (3% drop overnight) , but gps is still not working as yet.
The 4.4 early release is very buggy as many of my apps are not working.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Hiten Butani||11/9/13 1:54 AM|
My device is also having same issue,GPS not working. Setting-Location on-off doesn't solve issue.
With the help of lockwake detector found Pil-gss always busy and eats resources.
Google don't damage you brand name with such inexpirence hardware vendor, you will have loss of customers. Blackberry and Nokia already suffered with loss of customer's, soon you will get trap if you don't address customers problem.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||tomcat2||11/14/13 9:34 AM|
KitKat 4.4 KT160 release fixes the wakelock and gps issues on my device and everything works as it should.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Dexter McDew||11/14/13 9:40 AM|
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||JordanKZ||11/14/13 9:42 AM|
I completely forgot about this. I got the 4.4 OTA yesterday, I too can confirm the wake lock issue no longer exists. :)
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Bryan Gianninoto||11/14/13 10:53 AM|
Any GPS issues with the 4.4 OTA?
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Dexter McDew||11/14/13 8:57 PM|
I can confirm the pil-gss wakelock is gone with the 4.4 ota. Guess Google finally listened to us.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||kraask||11/16/13 4:17 AM|
4.4 fixed both the wakelock and the GPS issues (as in GPS not working at all) I've been having.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Dexter McDew||11/16/13 10:06 AM|
How do you check if GPS actually works? Maps loads fine,I get the location correctly, but there's no blinking gps icon on the statusbar, like the one which appears in the nexus 4.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Daniel_S.||11/16/13 1:12 PM|
There is an app called "GPS Test" that does exactly what its name implies. It shows you your GPS coordinates, general location on a world map, a sky map of satellites the GPS has found, the signal strength of each GPS signal and a few other details.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Dexter McDew||11/17/13 8:32 AM|
Alright. Thanks Daniel. GPS works fine! Boy, am I glad for 4.4. I was about to RMA mine and then 4.4 happens. :)
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Chris Brandstrom||11/26/13 11:01 AM|
Ok I just wanted to update everyone on my own experience with both 4.4 KitKat AND with ASUS support.
I purchased my tablet from Newegg, so was relegated to Asus support. I sent my tablet in prior to the release of 4.4. You have to start with an online chat support before you can be issued an RMA. Ok, that's understandable and it went well enough, nor did I have to wait too long. Of course I had to carefully explain everything (wakelock problem, GPS lock problem). After all that I was (not surprisingly) asked to perform a factory reset to see if it fixed. Sigh, I had already tried that like many of you, without success. However, I did it anyway, and reported back to them the following day that there was no change. Ok great, I got an RMA number and instructions to send it in for repair. Ok good...now we are getting somewhere right? Wrong.
Here is what happened. I very carefully wrote out, in detail, the issues I was having and how to reproduce them. I put this info online and on the printed RMA from and then packed up the tablet WITH the stock charger as well and sent it off. Some time passed and I could see some updates at the Asus support site that the tablet was in the repair process. Once it was indicated that the repair was complete it shipped back. Great! I got it back and what did I find? They looked at it, factory reset it, and shipped it back. AND they shipped it back WITHOUT the charger which I sent in (and marked as included on the RMA form). So all that detail about the actual problem seems to have been completely ignored. To add insult to injury, upon testing it when I received it back it very clearly still had the exact same wakelock problem. It was NOT FIXED... at all.
It was during the time that the tablet was away on RMA that people started getting the 4.4 update. I decided I had to test it so I did the manual sideload update to 4.4. I am here to report, that like some others, the 4.4 update seems to have completely fixed it! No wakelock. GPS seems to work normal now too. Thank you Google....and no thanks to you, Asus.
Some approximate numbers:
Pre-4.4, with wakelock problem: I would lose ~30% charge overnight (8ish hours) while letting it sleep completely unused.
POST 4.4: Last night I took it off charger completely cahrged 100%and left it off overnight. About 9.5 hours I was down to 98%. I lost 2% charge. TWO PERCENT. And that is without WiFi and sync on. It surely seems fixed now.
I will be buying direct from Google Play from now on......
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Bryan Gianninoto||11/26/13 3:18 PM|
I could be wrong about this, but even if you bought it through Google play wouldn't they still relegate you to Asus for RMA?
Anyway I'm glad you got your tablet back and that 4.4 update fixed the GPS/wakelock issue. I have always been a fan of Asus products, but their customer support and RMA process are absolutely horrible. I learned this when I had an Asus motherboard die on me a few years back. Same thing happened with the motherboard -- took them 4 weeks to send it back to me, and it was still broken when I got it back. I buy Gigabyte motherboards now.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Tony Maro||11/26/13 3:57 PM|
The fact that Asus makes it almost made me not buy mine - first though I'll say 4.4 definitely fixes it, so there wasn't a hardware problem to begin with.
I had a netbook from Asus when they first came out. The mouse stick stopped working and I tried for three weeks to get an RMA and Asus continued to run me in circles. Then suddenly they gave me the correct person to contact and I received a prompt "out of warranty" reply. Sure enough, my warranty expired the day before they finally gave me the correct contact to get an RMA. They ran me in circles for three weeks waiting for it to expire.
I used to buy about 30 Asus motherboards a year for my work between growth and rolling upgrades, but completely stopped after I had that experience. The Nexus 7 is the only Asus product I've bought since, and only because I figured Google would be the ones standing behind it.
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Carla dG||12/5/13 2:23 AM|
Since the update to 4.4 Kit Kat wifi and 3G randomly disconnect. I need to re-enter my pincode to active 3G again. To enable wifi I need to restart the tablet to be able to activate wifi again. Without restarting the tablet, wifi just states: enabling wifi, without actually enabling it. :-(
|Re: Nexus 7 2013 pil-gss wakelock||Walter Ruf||2/4/14 1:53 AM|
Unfortunatly, the problem persists with my N7/2013 with 4.4. Any ideas?