|Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/19/12 4:28 AM|
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||fathom||8/19/12 5:30 AM|
Report precisely what actions you have taken to Google in your reconsideration request. They can negate links of this nature provided you have made an honest attempt to rectify the situation.
Don't just write/talk about what you have done (talk is cheap)... show them your repeated email requests to the webmasters their appropriate email addresses you sent the messages to, dates, times.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Marie Haynes||8/19/12 8:43 AM|
Can you share with us how much detail you gave in your (failed) reconsideration requests? Did you simply say that you contacted webmasters or did you give proof?
Also, are you sure that you have a thorough list of your backlinks? Sometimes Webmaster tools doesn't give you all of the links. You need to use a combo of several backlink checkers to be sure you're thorough.
And finally, are you sure you have been tough enough on yourself? I have found that many webmasters are way too lenient. They have a subconscious desire to hold on to links and as a result don't remove a good number of links that Google would actually consider unnatural.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/19/12 3:55 PM|
In the failed reconsideration attempts, I was simply showing the list of inorganic urls I could find in 1 column, and then the list of removed urls in another.......This time around I have included a much more detailed report including:
In addition to contacting webmasters of the subject sites via email addresses acquired from WhoIs records or via their sites, I also purchased three premium link removal tools/services:
To be honest I have been very hard on myself this time around anf the bottom line is, we have taken all possible steps to remove all the offending links, and in the process, we have probably lost many legitimate links, as well, by erring on the side of caution.
I also have a very detailed cover letter which includes my actions in great details. I will be filing this with my reconsideration request.
This has been a very long, exhausting and costly process and I have learnt a lot during this exercise. If there is something more that I can do to bring us back into compliance with Google’s guidelines, please tell me what it is and I will do it immediately!
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/20/12 3:21 AM|
In the warnings I got in the past from the Google Web Spam Team I have been advised that all links can be found in the Google Webmaster Tools.
At that point I began manually the process of links evaluation and removal, and later I found the tool 'Removeem' which they claim that they pull all the links from MajesticSEO and SEOMoz Open explorer. To make sure that the number of links were accurate and up-to-date, I also downloaded my links from MajesticSEO, turning off the filters, I downloaded the links from my Google Webmaster Tools account and uploaded for an extra fee to the "Removeem" tool, just to doublecheck and ensure that I did not miss any links which needed be evaluated and removed.
As it would take me years to be able to manually check all those thousands of links, evaluate them, find emails of the webmasters were offending links were placed, the tool "Removeem" was great help, because it was filtering links that already did no longer exist, because domains were unavailable or suspended, or pages returned 404s, or existing links were attributed with a "nofollow",etc.
I am following up since March 2012 endless of forums and blog posts about this issue, and I never read or heard anywhere that I also need to record date and time I have send webmasters a link removal request. Using the tool "Remoeveem", if they already had the email of that site I wanted my link to be removed, I could send through their panel an email, which I did not had an option to get a copy of the send email. But still every time I have send a request they had a counter of the frequency I did that, and when I exported the results in a CSV file, no date and/or time have been included.
To be honest, after this financial disaster I am going though since January 2012, I do understand that I did big mistakes in the past, but definetely not intentionally, and if we want to be honest here, if Google checks my link profile since I began my links removal process, there can not be any stronger evidence that I did make my very best possible to remove the links that Google considers as inorganic or unatural.
Just adding a date and a time of emails I requested removal is not an evidence at all! THAT CAN BE FAKED!!!! If you we are talking here about copying the headers of the emails and creating a collection of those to send to the Google Web Spam Team, then I undestand, but that again is something I never heard someone who recovered from a penalty or any SEO, or any link prunning tool provider doing that. I also never found such an advise elsewhere., including the advise of the Chief of the Webspam Team Mr. Matt Cutts here http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.de/2012/07/new-notifications-about-inbound-links.html
One thing is for sure, EVIDENCE is the number of links I managed to get removed with the kind contribution of the webmasters who reacted to my request.
All that said, so far the majority of the bad links have been removed, if not many good ones too. The ones that have not been removed because webmasters still deny not to do so after 4 or more now link removal request attempts, make me think if the next solution should be to hire hackers and let them blow up their sites so I can get my last offending links removed. But I certainly do not beleive that Google would support such a practice. And my question now is, what else is left for me to do?
Fathom if I should go through the remaining links and repeat myself sending emails to webmasters who proved to not care, and I should create a collection of the headers of all the new send emails, I would do that damn thing too, but only if a person from Google' Web Spam Team, confirms that I must do so.
Enough is enough. If I need to kill my damn domain, then Google please let me know.
Any further feedbacks would be very much appreciated.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Webnauts||8/20/12 4:11 AM|
If Fathom is right about that sort of evidence, I think you missed something. If you can't find the emails of the webmasters and you need to request a link removal, but they still have a contact form on their site, you should fill out the contact form, make a screenshot of your entire screen before sending and one screenshot of the next page when send. With saying the entire screen I mean, make sure that in the screenshots the date and hour found in your windows bottom bar is included.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||cristina||8/20/12 4:22 AM|
I simply do not know if the team that reads the reconsideration requests has the time to look at all those screenshots or email headers, (but I would guess it is a good idea for you to keep them anyway.)
I think it makes sense to check if the pages containing the links are still in the Google cache with the link (even if the link or the whole page has been removed), because if the content with the bad link is still in the Google cache, it might still be counted as a link,
and give this info (if the link is still in the Google cache or not) with the reconsideration request.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/20/12 4:51 AM|
To highlight the lengths I have gone to, to make sure my profile is 100% clean, I even did the following:
In an email from Google, they gave me example urls highlighting my links which they considered unnatural or inorganic. They were very high quality directories, but the pages in question not only contained a link to my penalized site, but also a link to another site I owned in the same niche but which was targeting the US (my penalized site is targeting Australia).
I have had the same issue on other directories too and many webmasters also completely ignored my multiple requests to remove the links in question.
On many of those directory pages there are still links pointing to my competitors, and one of their sites are currently ranking number 1 in Google for our main term ‘business for sale’. Am I missing something again?
So, after my removal request were ignored from the webmasters of several of those directors, I went to the extreme of blocking Google Bot completely from my USA site and requested a removal from the index completely, hoping that this would fix the problem.
So what’s next?
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||cristina||8/20/12 5:41 AM|
Are your two sites very similar? If the only difference is that they are intended for different countries (but otherwise similar in content), try link hreflang alternate, see
But if the reconsideration team gave specific examples of links, I think you need to try to have those links removed.
If the directories containing the links are indeed good directories, they should have easy ways for the sites listed to control the links and remove the links if they wish.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Webnauts||8/20/12 6:07 AM|
@cristina the original poster shared with me the links of both of his web sites. They have a totally different design/layout, also both have completely unique content. Nothing identical at all. Hope this info clarifies any questions or doubts.
And my question to you now is, since when all good web directories allow users to edit or remove links? Some do and some not. Is that a criteria defining a directory good or not?
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Geminineil||8/20/12 6:14 AM|
Having worked for the past 4 months trying to get backlinks removed I have now decided to call it a day.
What would have helped not only webmasters but also Google would be if they were to specify EXACTLY what type of links that need to be removed in order to recover from a backlink penalty and also how long an imposed penalty is for.
Via Webmaster tools Google direct webmasters to this forum where there is a wealth of experience BUT also conflicting advice as to what links to remove.
Yes, the bottom line is to get removed ANY/ALL links that you or an seo company on your behalf have added. BUT there are also suggestions that side-wide links can cause a problem regardless as to whether you have had anything to do with getting the links. The view from the holier-than-thou group are that if you have created or had anything to do with bad backlinks then just about anything can be considered as a 'bad' link. The jury is still out for me whether negative seo can work or not but I don't see how Google can determine who placed links to a website - sorry but that isn't just practically possible. I could walk down the road and hand $100 dollars to someone to spam link a website - how on earth would Google know it was the webmaster or not.
Regarding which links to get removed - In my case John Mu (Google employee) posted in reply to me that a site-wide link from a personal blog would NOT be a problem - which is not the view of many on here.
For whatever reason Google has chosen to not advise webmasters as to exactly which links are 'unnatural'. Okay, but then they are swamped with wasting their time on reconsideration requests that could be avoided IF they were to detail EXACTLY what type of links are causing these 'unnatural links' messages.
1. Is it ONLY links that are generated by a webmaster
2. Is it all links that look 'unnatural'
3. Please define these links - Directories, blog comment profile links, mulitiple links of the same text, articles, re-spun articles, multiple owned websites inter-linking etc, Any more?
4. How about telling webmasters how long penalties are for as I believe that some penalties may continue after the cleaning up of the 'unnatural links process'.
5. Are penalties based on what is in WMT as this data can often be out of date due to cached content not being re-crawled. Sure you can re-submit web pages so that the content is updated in Google's search but what if you have tens of thousands of deleted backlinks... how to re-submit those web-pages as there isn't a means to do multiple submissions? Sure you can wait for a re-crawl but that can and will in many cases take months.
Along with many webmasters, I would like to see Google give specific examples of 'unnatural links' in their reconsideration request replies but the problem with that is what happens IF any of those links that are seen to be 'unnatural' have not been generated by the webmaster - and then a whole new can of worms is opened, and my guess is that Google doesn't want to open it.
I have yet to see any real evidence of a 'typical' webmaster that has recovered from the unnatural links penalty - there is one reported on an seo website for a site-wide link that they posted on a Wordpress Template but that was an unusual case and not 'typical'. I understand that several hundred thousand webmasters have recieved an 'unnatural links' penalty or penalty via the Penguin and at the moment I don't see ANY merit in continuing down the path of hitting my head against a brick wall trying to get links removed with no end in sight.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||GaryJJ127||8/20/12 7:43 AM|
What I cannot understand is why Google can't install a disavow option on backlinks. What's to say someone just wants to create spammy links to your site to demote your rankings? If this happens you have to go through an extremely long and time consuming process to get them removed. Why can't you just have some system where you can view your backlinks online and validate the ones that you want google to index? Surely this would be fairly easy to do, and would also build a good picture for Google to determine a good site or a bad one. I'm sure there are more than a few people who have also been caught out by SEO firms who say they're going to use completely legitimate ways of building your SERPS but just lazily throw a couple of thousand spam links on a blog. Surely it's bad enough to be duped by an SEO, but then to suffer months of hardship as a result of it seems a little unfair.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||ViranteMarketing||8/20/12 8:30 AM|
There are quite a few reasons why Google may have a problem with a disavow tool...
1. Checking the trillions of links Google knows about to determine if it happens to have been disavowed is incredibly difficult. It is more likely the disavow status of a link would only be checked right before a penalty is administered.
2. The disavow tool would seemingly allow users to spam the internet with links and then disavow them in Google, allowing them to rank in other search engines without good spam detection. It would be unfair, especially to the webmasters whose sites were spammed, if this get out of jail free card truly existed.
My guess is that Google will do both. They will have a disavow tool but also ask that webmasters do some due diligence in removing links.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Lysis||8/20/12 9:21 AM|
^^ Thank you. For anyone who thinks creating something like that is a walk in the park, you are clueless about the web and programming.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Ashley||8/20/12 9:34 AM|
Hm. Is Phil now posting as Virante?
Was the site ever posted by the original poster? It's one thing to clean up links and try to remove the manual penalty, but I'm curious about the actual content and site strategy. Those may hold back rankings as well...
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Webnauts||8/20/12 12:52 PM|
@Ashley I doubt that he has any on-page issues. In the first warning he got Google warned about on-pages issues which he have found and eliminated and by the next warnings was no more mentioned.
Here is the URL of his web site: http://www.business-trader.com.au.
It is important to add herethat a couple days ago he added a "nofollow" attribute to all links pointing to the individual listing pages which he never did before, just because they are primarly user generated and he wants to go more safe.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||GaryJJ127||8/20/12 3:00 PM|
I hadn't really thought of people using spammy links to game other search engines. I would imagine the majority of people who link farm are targeting google based on the way their algorithm works. I could however be talking out of my arse, as you have correctly pointed out that I am clueless about programming, but if bing can implement a disavow function it must be fairly easy :0)
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/20/12 5:20 PM|
I would also like to hear from a 'typcial' webmaster who has actually recovered from Penguin or OOP (over optimization penalty). Google needs to be more upfront! Its bad enough that businesses have been destroyed over night, but to then allow us webmasters to continue working our ass's off trying to fix the problem, only to be ignored by Google simply is not fair.
Regarding the Disavow tool, Bing released their own version some weeks back, and speaking from experience, I have to say is it awesome! I have disavowed approx 500-600 inorganic links during this time and my 'Bing' traffic increase over 400%! My site is kicking ass in Bing/Yahoo and the disavow tool couldn't be easier to use (a bulk upload would be handy).
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||1918 (deprecated)||8/21/12 12:25 PM|
Nope, I'm still just me :-)
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/22/12 5:10 AM|
So today I submitted my final reconsideration request (after my last request was ignored approx 4 weeks ago). I have outlined all measures taken over the past several months in order to clean up the inorganic links to the best of my ability and also what I am physically able to achieve.
If Google does not lift the penalty from my site this time around, I am left with no other conclusion but to believe that my penalty can NOT be reversed.
Unlike Bing, if Google decides not to release a 'disavow' tool, then the inorganic links which I was unable to convince the webmasters will keep my penalty alive. There is nothing more frustrating then shooting out 3, 4 or even 5 email link removal requests, only to be totally ignored by the webmaster.
Google was nice enough to provide me with a bunch of example links which I needed to remove. The problem is, most (if not all) of the urls in question have been banned and de-indexed by Google, and therefore it looks like the webmasters do not bother removing my links. Why should they waste their time.
If no one has any advice, I would appreciate it very much if you would express your opinion.
Thanks in advance.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Webnauts||8/22/12 5:27 AM|
I would like to ask you if you would not mind sharing with us a copy of your re-inclusion request you submitted today (if you still have a copy), so we can also tell if you probably missed anything.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/22/12 5:30 AM|
Ok, no problem.
Thanks in advance.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Geminineil||8/22/12 6:14 AM|
Having spent the majority of my time over the past 4 months emailing webmasters, re-emailing and emailing again etc and for the reconsideration request to come back again with the standard response I have decided to take the bull by the horns and move domains... leaving the existing domain Disallowed etc....
The problems with emailing webmasters with most ignoring removal requests replying with abusive ermails the negative energy is simply awful. However, the positive energy starting something new can re-energise you.
The three major problems with this link removal process are 1) many webmasters don't (or won't) remove the links and 2) I don't actually know which links Google wants removed and 3) Google's WMT data is out of date in terms of what is 'live' today. Due to Google needing to re-crawl and re-cache websites where they think the links are still present this process could take months/years. I have links showing that were removed in January!
Sure we could re-submit pages for Google to re-crawl but there is now means of doing this with multiple urls and if we are to re-submit 10,000s of urls we would probably get banned by Google.
Time to move on...
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Webnauts||8/22/12 12:32 PM|
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/22/12 3:06 PM|
Geminineil, I can't argue with your comments and I totally agree. My GWT is also displaying links which were removed 'MONTHS' ago, which doesn't help my situation.
In regards to starting over, I just can't walk from it yet. After 8 years of steadily improving in the serps and then to finally reach #1 for my main terms a couple of years ago was a very rewarding experience. To start all over would be my worst nightmare and I'd most like give up the game and seek employment.
This situation has not only ruined me financially, but also on a personal level it has been a very stressful time in my life. I've had to change my kids schools (8 year old boy and 6 year old girl), my wife has seeked full time employment (had to find a baby sitter for our 1 year old boy) and I'm about to do the same.
This has been approx 6 long months and I'm just not seeing results. I'll just sit tight and see what Google says about the reconsideration request I submitted yesterday and I'll keep everyone updated. Wish me luck!!!!
WEBNAUTS, I have to agree with the two urls you mentioned not being very useful. They are low quality and not very user friendly. One of them was nice enough to refund my money after 3-4 weeks, and I would be advising not to use them.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Christoph C. Cemper||8/23/12 7:20 AM|
Hi Webnauts / John
From what I see you have been trying our software
once over 2 years ago when we had 5 tools instead of the 17, and a fraction of the performance and features.
Not sure what make you call us "suck big time", but I would invite you to take a full free trial here for a tweet
I hope you can then clarify the issues you had with the software so we can improve it further
(and we've improved it a lot the last 2+ years! take a look)
Hi Peter / Businesstrader
I noticed you signed up for our free Link Detox product on Monday. Not sure if you are refering to problems
with our product as we haven't heard from you in product support, but I would like to invite you as well.
Chistoph C. Cemper
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||cristina||8/23/12 9:55 AM|
@Webnauts, when someone mentions that a directory is a good quality directory I assume that it is a directory that can be easily contacted by the people who have sites listed in the directory, and/or it provides login features so people can edit or confirm the anchor text of the link to their own site or nofollow or remove the link.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Alex813||8/23/12 1:47 PM|
I looked at 3 of your links, and saw 2 that need to be removed.
I'm not going to go further.
You have all sorts of article links, on HORRIBLE article sites
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/23/12 2:47 PM|
Yes I still have remaining bad links which I have not been successful in removing after multiple attempts. If you read my thread (or reconsideration request here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R8CMAqXKdkPgP_rY73RI2AbuusCF5pUbh9ze684dnII/edit?pli=1) you would have noticed that I have been cleaning my link profile for months. I have identified every single link pointing to my site and during this time have slowly worked my way through the list.
You have told me nothing new in your feedback and not really sure what the point of it was?
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||1918 (deprecated)||8/24/12 6:22 AM|
To answer your original question - Google penalties are not permanent.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||DaMan||8/24/12 6:43 AM|
indeed they are not - but for unnatural links it may be even a 2-3 year wait.... and the problem with that could be that even if you dont solve the problem and you are "automatically" revoked you could get back into the bag if another manual review comes by?
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||1918 (deprecated)||8/24/12 8:00 AM|
DaMan - my agency is just now starting to see some of our clients come back from Penguin now... so that is more like 3-6 months. It was through aggressive link removal and a well thought through reinclusion process.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Marie Haynes||8/24/12 8:06 AM|
You are seeing sites recover from Penguin even without a Penguin refresh?
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||fathom||8/24/12 8:07 AM|
If that be the case they were not effected by PENGUIN.
You cannot recover until a PENGUIN re-RUN and that has not occurred since May 25/26, 2012.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||antsplace||8/24/12 8:10 AM|
If these recoveries were as a result of a reconsideration request then that would make sense, rather than recovery from a Penguin refresh.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||DaMan||8/24/12 8:11 AM|
We are talking about 2 different things algorithmic (pengiun) is not a time penalty. 1918 wrote something general about all "penalties" at least thats what I understood. So I just commented that aspect. Penguin in my experience will not let you out unless you reduce the spam - but that happens automatically when the bots have recrawled and reindexed everything.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||fathom||8/24/12 8:26 AM|
The problem with PENGUIN related data we have the original and one re-RUN.
That doesn't make for accuracy to any degree of certainty.
I would also agree the reduction is the best course to take but let's assume for the moment that you recover... you will not likely acquire the ranks you previous had so it is equally important to concern now how you will develop natural links because PENGUIN re-RUNs schedules are unknown but natural links are not tied to any schedule.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||DaMan||8/24/12 8:42 AM|
Peter I also had/have a filter - mine was specific to a number of keywords mainly but it effected me sitewide. I dropped off Jan 8th 2012. I made about 4 recons:
The replies were:
first within 7 week - generic with no info about penalty (we have reviewed your site)
second response within 2 weeks - generic with info about penalty (manual spam action still in effect)
third after after 3-4 weeks - generic with no info about penalty (we have reviewed your site)
fourth after 1 week - generic no info about penalty (we have reviewed your site)
Gave up after that.
I wrote this elswhere but ill repeat:
Whilst the last generic responses I got are "we have reviewed the site" (no mention of manual action), I got a response from the webmaster-central-help@google email (Google Search Quality Team)
"At this time, there is still a manual action on your site.
That said, I have now moved across the board past around the 20th of July - thats about 30 days after my last reconsideration request reply (26th of June). My main keyword which was nuked moved from 300-350 to 110 so still in limbo but there is a general "change". I dont know if this has to do with the latest penguin "patches", me removeing links and being treated more granually or my work in getting more natural links through various linkbaits.
Note that I still got the unnatural link message on the 19th of July like most people.
So my question to you is are any of your keywords moveing /even longtails/. Is the penalty sitewide or keyword specific?
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/24/12 10:14 PM|
You story sounds very similar to mine. Almost identical!
To answer your question, originally I had a keyword penalty for my main term 'business for sale'. Then when Penguin rolled out, my home page was nuked for that term (among others), but I still held page 1 rankings for 'businessES for sale'. It looked as though I had keyword penalty, but over the coming months things got worse and now it looks like a site wide penalty for all terms surrounding my main terms and now other terms also ie 'selling a business' (was #1, now nuked!), 'buying a business' (was #1, now nuked!), , etc, etc, etc.
My terms are still fluxing on a daily basis. I'm talking big fluxes too, but I am still getting no love for my two main terms.
Check out my analytic attachment. Unbelievable!
I was informed today about someone who was recently released from their manual penalty and they received the following email:
“Dear site owner or webmaster of http://www.example.com/,
We received a request from a site owner to reconsider http://www.example.com/ for compliance with Google's Webmaster Guidelines.
Previously the webspam team had taken manual action on your site because we believed it violated our quality guidelines. After reviewing your reconsideration request, we have revoked this manual action. It may take some time before our indexing and ranking systems are updated to reflect the new status of your site.
Of course, there may be other issues with your site that could affect its ranking without a manual action by the webspam team. Google's computers determine the order of our search results using a series of formulas known as algorithms. We make hundreds of changes to our search algorithms each year, and we employ more than 200 different signals when ranking pages. As our algorithms change and as the web (including your site) changes, some fluctuation in ranking can happen as we make updates to present the best results to our users. If your site continues to have trouble in our search results, please see this article for help with diagnosing the issue.
Thank you for helping us to maintain the quality of our search results.
Google Search Quality Team”
This gives me some hope and I am looking forward to receiving the same email, soon!
After years of hard work and providing a quality service for our customers, if there is no change after the next Penguin roll out, I will have to walk away. Starting from scratch on a new domain is not an option for me. My family and I have survived as long as we could, waiting for things to change, and now its time to look for a job. What a culture shock!
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||DaMan||8/25/12 4:12 AM|
all penguin is an algorithmic penalty to do with backlinks and overop/overspam
of your page - so I think that you wont move much unless you get the manual
action revoked as that "overrules" the algorithmic penalties or at
least has a much bigger influence.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/25/12 5:26 AM|
I agree. There won't be much change for me until the manual action is removed. But with all the work I have put in over the past few months removing inorganic links, well, my profile looks much healthier than my competition.
In September/October 2011 my main competitor tried to take me to court for copyright infringement. He withdrew once he realized he didn't have a case and my Lawyer put him in his place. 2/3 months later in December 2011 and again in March 2012, my site had a massive influx of spammy links. I'm mean thousands! I went from about 3000 links (which remained steady for years), and then all of a sudden BANG! I had about 27,000 links. And guess what, I hadn't done link building in a very long time and almost all of these inorganic links used my main term as the anchor. (Pffft! What a joke! I already had the #1 positions, so why on earth would I risk my business by participating in such a stupid act. It just doesn't make sense).
So I was already ranking #1 for my main terms for a very long time and I didn't shoot to #1 based on the new influx of inorganic links.
My point is, I believe that when Google see's the effort I have put in and that most of these links are now gone and my link profile is back to the way it was before I was bombed, then the manual penalty will be removed and building new links is not needed. I am not expecting to shoot back to my old rankings, but I can't see why I would bounce back to healthy rankings once again.
I have no plans on building new links and I am now focusing on social factors. I am too scared! :-)
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||fathom||8/25/12 5:37 AM|
Irrelevant... unless someone (anyone, including you) reports them via the spam report.
I'm sure your competitors said the same thing months ago about you and one of them wised up and reported you.
The problem with reporting though you need to investigate and report your findings. That's alot of unpaid work that may pay dividends in the future. Course that is exactly why people avoid whitehat tactics... they MAY pay off... and no one likes wasting money on the MAY NOTs.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/25/12 5:54 AM|
Yes it is irrelevant how I accumulated the inorganic links and as noted in my reconsideration request (in my original post) I 'have' reported these links via the spam report.
I am not sure what you mean but this......
It was a huge amount of work that we did over the past 4-5 months, but I had no choice but to make the effort. I wasn't going to simply walk away. I am looking forward to Google reply, either way.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||DaMan||8/25/12 5:57 AM|
W dniu sobota, 25 sierpnia 2012 14:26:35 UTC+2 użytkownik businesstrader napisał:
If you are sure only those links were the problem and there were no others then ok. I do sometimes get the feeling that G picks something very much on the grey that my not have been a problem in the past - the rest are/should be already handeled algorithmically.
As to competition or Negative SEO I guess there has to be something more in place for it to have a bigger effect. Can't totally discount it, but seeing this "happen" with seomoz after a week of getting the unnatural link message one can only wonder:
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||fathom||8/25/12 6:35 AM|
I'm not making light of your situation, it is alot of hard work but it is also important educational tools as well and as such it is also important to understand how things actually occurred so you can avoid having the same misfortune in the future..
You do not get a Manual Review unless someone reported you to Google and only then does Google manually review your case and potentially agree with the submitter thus the negative impact of a Manual Review. That submitter could also be a search user that thought your listing wasn't close to what they desired but most often the submitter is someone with an invested interest in seeing you disappear from top results (with obvious good reason if Google should agree with them).
Believe me when I say I feel your pain, over the years of have lost almost 1000 domains and it was far easier to dispose of them than attempt a recovery. I purposely attempt many time to force a penalty to see if recovery was possible but I have been a repeat offender and have no redeeming quality. I have never gotten any notification from Google... I just outright banned from the index (in the past anyway).
That said, Google does not have teams randomly seeking out those that violate it terms of service... a Manual Review is a "come by chance" happen and most often found by competitive research.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||fathom||8/25/12 6:43 AM|
A few days impact is the value Negative SEO offers to its customers... Are you serious?
These guys have got a goldmine if they can sucker customers into believing a few days is value added service.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/25/12 6:47 AM|
Disavow tool. Works great at Bing!
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||DaMan||8/25/12 6:56 AM|
W dniu sobota, 25 sierpnia 2012 15:43:40 UTC+2 użytkownik fathom napisał:
I think Rand has it easier to "talk" to google and let them know "in a few days". I just found the graf very interesting as they have a very stable traffic it seems and before that they did get a message. True I wouldnt see that anything as proof - just saying I found it interesting.
I have no idea what you mean by that
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/25/12 6:58 AM|
Fathom, what you said makes perfect sense and actually makes things clearer to me. It confirms my thoughts re why I was penalized in the first place.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||fathom||8/25/12 8:57 AM|
That pure speculation for starters. Who the hell is Michal Kijewski? Does not seem to be an SEOMoz employee and while public data can give you the appearance of insider data... it isn't insider data. Here's the real story without ones ego embellishing on ones accomplishments.
In the second place, the notifications are automated. It may indeed be a 3rd party intent on showing SEOMoz that they can "HARM THEM" but the notification advises SEOMoz that Google does not trust that HARM and it negates it.
So like any other negative impact like hosting outages, node outages, a malformed sitemap, a bad re-direct, an accidential error in your robots.txt you can certainly have short term problems... but here's the spin back... how much effort did it take to induce a change "AT ALL"?
I'm sure 4 million new backlinks will cause flucuations in anyone traffic but cause flucuation isn't a service viable service.
You want to harm your competitors so you own "THEIR RESULTS"... how much is that worth?
In reverse, how many businesses pay for organic results for 1-2 weeks only?
NONE! (that I know of)
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||fathom||8/25/12 9:06 AM|
I'll also note: if the challenge took 4-6 weeks to create and produced no more than 2 weeks of return. The cost to implement is unsustainable.
Good for show but serves no viable business opportunities.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||DaMan||8/25/12 9:51 AM|
1) Ive read that of course and as you can see it displays a graph up to the before what alexa shows
2) Doesnt matter who he is; the observation is interesting - doesnt have to be an employee to have an opinion?
3) I nor he never said its more than speculation - one has to keep his mind open no? Though you seem intent on sticking to your claims - remember a while back when you vigorously claimed links cant hurt you - http://forums.seochat.com/showpost.php?p=463563&postcount=52
Id really lighten up - neither you or I or another 3rd party can claim anything for certain.
I don't want to harm anybody, maybe I should type in larger like you did so its clearer; I was just making an observation
Im really not gonna get further into a conversation about this as really this is not the subject of the thread nor do I want to speculate on what may be or may not be as one could easily assume that with so much press the situation was "fixed" by Google quickly whilst other "normal" sites are stuck with the effects - and before you go off at me I'm not saying that happened...
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||fathom||8/25/12 10:28 AM|
I'm not implying you wish to do anything... but you do like to embellish a tad.
The problem (that I see and purely only an opinion) is black hat strategists are having a tough time making money because the lifespan of blackhat is getting shorter & shorter.
They need to build a sustainable future based on their developed knowledge & skillsets... "they have a need to pay their bills just like everyone else".
Since it it clear they can no longer develop their own products/services that will stand even for a short few weeks (seriously no blackhatter would ever develop a single natural link to their spammy domains... it would be a waste)... but purely 100% unnatural links since PENGUIN is so flawed that you would get a week or 2 before you need to dispose of and start over.
Surely, they need something a little more sustainable.
I didn't read the SEOMoz post but it was 13 weeks (3 months) to get a notification from 4 million additional links and traffic loses from the Alexa report shows at best 1 week of loses... that doesn't sound like much harm to me.
If that's all Negative SEO has to offer... "links to you cannot harm you".
It is great that SEOMoz afforded to the opportunity to show the potential... but the only thing remotely harmful with all of this is the fear that can spread from propagating these myths.
Negative SEO has a life... it is like this...
NEG SEO REP: "Hello my name is Bob and I offer negative SEO services to remove your competitors from results... are you interested in a special for $1000?"
Potential Customer: "Not interested!"
NEG SEO REP: "well if you choose not to harm your customers we will be calling them to harm you"
Potential Customer: "what should I do? I really don't want to use your services"
NEG SEO REP: "if you refuse to pay us we'll simply harm you and you'll be left with no results."
Potential Customer: "what should I do?"
The fear of Negative SEO is so bad that people who would otherwise not intentional get involved in ill will ... may.
That's all these threads are designed to do... create buzz and money for those that are losing it on a flawed strategy.
Be that as it may... instead of investing in proving or disproving something you observe and report as as you suggested
It was a test and you need to observe the "TEST" as oppose to this "HAPPEN"..
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||DaMan||8/25/12 11:35 AM|
hehe, ok if its only a tad then I guess there is grounds to talk with cool heads ;)
I think you got the wrong impression that I am setting out to prove something or saying it's worth the effort to do this or that. I don't care for blackhats and just trying to do a normal business. I got into my trouble more or less on my own account and have owned up to it. That said WHEN I see Google havening problems with ranking sites (ie they rank v high) that are pure spam one can have doubts to their algorithm. Sure its a complex thing and I don't envy them. On the other hand I do worry that after I do all this cleaning, get natural backlinks somebody can "easily" tip me over doing some blasts/whatever.
I don't believe Google has a fully secure algorithm - after all their wording has changed about links doing harm and the general tone is less "definite". At least that what I get from the HO.
Bottom line - I think that "pro" black hats will keep doing their own thing and those that stay under the radar wont bother to post on forums (you can see an example of extreme blackhat with the ministry of fishery in finland /hacked?/ at the same google profile).
Even 1 week of loss (and it looks more like 2-3) shouldn't happen (again - if it did at all). Firstly, apart from the fact that we don't know if that was the reason, we don't know if somebody "fixed" it manually. If you believe Peter was "influenced" by competition then its not hard to believe somebody else could - and just compare seomozs excellent backlink profile versus his to determine the validity of that and the scale one would technically need to go to.
I'd agree that the strategy is hopefully flawed and hopefully in the long term it wont be anybody's strategy - eliminated like google bombs. IMO it's still early in the day to judge.
It's of course hard to "prove" one thing or another - as that googleplus page indicated. It "seems" to happen. Even with a lot of observation theories may not be able to find proof especially since none know the G. algorithm or can take into account week to week changes of the code.
It easily imaginable though that a person who claims NSEO works sets up his own domain to fall - a bit of patience and you can get something like that done - as many oblivious webmasters have with their own sites. Its also imaginable that a person who claims it doesn't work set up a meager test vs a v good domain and "proves" if fails. There could be many other reasons why the dip happened - from general index changes due to many people deleting links/whatever, their own pruning of links to something totally else.
BTW here is some more current data from Google itself on their visits since you don't seem to like alexa data ;)
Still just showing the dip - will be interesting to see how it looks 2-3 months from now.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/26/12 11:10 PM|
Ok, so I have just killed two urls on my site and renamed the files. sellabusiness.php and buyabusiness.php have now been changed, so these old file names now go to 410's, effectively killing all inorganic urls pointing to these pages. Both of these old urls used to rank #1 or #2 for their targeted terms, but got nuked.
|Webnauts||8/27/12 9:10 AM||<This message has been deleted.>|
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Webnauts||8/27/12 9:12 AM|
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||businesstrader||8/27/12 3:41 PM|
I killed the deeper pages as an experiment as they also contained inorganic links. Not many, but a few here and there. So now they are 100% clean.
As for the home page, I am open to experiment, but that will be in the event that my last reconsideration request is not successful.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||RichCertified||8/28/12 5:40 AM|
Hi, I am going through the same situation as businesstrador, we also bought Remove'em last month, however, it seems as though effort to remove links is a big weighing factor when Google decides to revoke manual penalties so I have advised my client to switch domains.
I've actually changed to Geminineil's perspective, I was bordering on this for a while but sometimes you have to make a decision when your stuck in a rut...
My question is, since my client's site had the .com version of their business name redirecting to the .co.uk which was the one penalized... I don't think the .com version would be affected simply for forwarding to it.. I'm sure you would soon find out when you start a new webmaster tools and verify ownership.. it would tell you if this domain was affected
My plan is to use the .com version they own which will have the benefit of age, since they have owned this domain name as long as the .co.uk
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||fathom||8/28/12 6:04 AM|
Experimenting with a Manual Review?
You need to satisfied Google Webspam Team that you appreciate and understand to guidelines and that is through showing good will on removing known links that are manipulating PageRank and/or results. You'll never get a Manual Review revoked through testing the waters.
Your test will produce unobserved changes... or a null.
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||RichCertified||8/28/12 6:12 AM|
'Experimenting with a Manual Review?'
Is this a quote because I didn't say this? I can assure you we haven't been 'testing' anything, its 4-5 months now and we have made considerable effort, to be it doesnt seem reasonable to continue this way when as Businesstrader has stated, what can you do when site owners/hosts won't help you?
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||andrewabd||8/28/12 9:34 AM|
You do not get a Manual Review unless someone reported you to Google and only then does Google manually review your case and potentially agree with the submitter thus the negative impact of a Manual Review.
Fathom are you sure about that? In the first 4 months of this year Google had sent thousands of those alerts (unaturla links alerts that are followed by a manual action) and from what heard the main reason of those alerts was:
- The blog networks (like BMR)
The other thing I thought about is redflag system (Penguin update will detect and flag websites where it could not make a definitive decision about to a human reviewer)
It will be great if you can provide the source of this information
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||RichCertified||8/28/12 10:12 AM|
Andrew you are right, the Unnatural Links Notice is followed by manual action, its just a lot of people here want to give advice about what to do but haven't actually received a notice themselves or done any research on it
|RichCertified||8/28/12 2:59 PM||<This message has been deleted.>|
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||RichCertified||8/28/12 3:27 PM|
My client still can't decide whether to switch domains, it just seems like unless we magically get all of our links removed this could go on forever, the thing is it seems as though we only lost half our traffic and conversions have been picking up this last week. However, how can we progress for other keywords we were punished for unless this notice goes away?
We've been writing quality and original content every day for the last 2 months to help our readers, but we will now have to transfer about 80 blog posts to the new domain and get those posts deindexed from the old site
I'm at a juncture right now where I'm wondering if any amount of effort would remove the notice.. therefore we could switch to our .com domain
However my client wants to use the same IP address, I can't see this being a problem since it was the domain thats punished not the IP
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Geminineil||8/28/12 3:37 PM|
Without knowing the exact circumstances it is difficult to offer advice that must ultimately be made by the website and business owner..
I would suggest as an option to create a new domain and have unique content on there and that will at least give a domain a chance to be ranking in 6-12 months time.... if all goes pear shaped all you will have lost is time spent on it....
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||RichCertified||8/28/12 3:49 PM|
The thing is my client has had a new site design made, however, it is now set up with all of the old blog posts on it, but I was thinking to get certain pages de-indexed and then he will be able to transfer the site how the web designer has made it across..
The thing is, I am skeptical now like you said you were yesterday, I tried to be optimistic but I can just see it going on and on..
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||Geminineil||8/28/12 4:29 PM|
I have spent the past 4 months with negative energy that drains but to create something new has positives and a positive outcome on the horizon that WILL happen... rather than a fingers crossed and hope....
|Re: Are Over-Optimization & Link Spam Penalties Permanent?||antispam||9/16/12 11:47 AM|
Hi. I read your posts all the time, so I know I risk being called a spammer by you. But let me just say this. I used to rank number 1 for "Accident Attorney", then I started noticing massive amounts of backlinks (Huge spike in April) to my site after April of 2012, from forums and directories, and blog comments by some person claiming to be"Oliver", from India, for those EXACT terms I already ranked number one, first page. Then a few weeks later, my ranking went "poof". No messages from Google, nothing. I would post some of the links here, but I dont want to send any juice to the bad forums. I was able to contact one forum owner in the U.S. and he basically told me to F off and sue him. I deleted all of the ezine articles also, as I can see that scraper sites were sending me a ton of exact match anchor that Google once seemed to say was Good. without exception, every single one of these new links, are from pure spam sites that I would NEVER consider placing a link on. I engage in social media and get links when fellow bloggers link back to me from related sites. I try and only post links from blog comments ONLY if they are no follow. I already contacted each directory and they agreed that these were spam, probably submitted by "scrapebox". But I had to pay. Also, some of the directories have a contact us box that sends you directlt to paypal to get links removed. So it appears that negative SEO companies are now spamming lawyers for money keywords in order to get money to rmove links. What would you do if you were me?