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User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance

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User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 4/30/12 12:29 PM
This is the Fifth in a long series of discussions that started out as a discussion of the Gmail "New Look" and now serve to provide user feedback to google to help improve the look, feel and function of the current Gmail.

The previous thread can be found here:
https://groups.google.com/a/googleproductforums.com/d/msg/gmail/-/ACAWcvq4irQJ
User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Notes+ 4/30/12 12:55 PM
The old look would be nice - yes i KNOW that it will never ever be brought back and that it fine with me. Google is not run by me and whoever does can do whatever they want.

Anyway, back to my point. I read somewhere that the google people are working on some kind of colour mixing thing. It would be smashing if there could be the usual range of colours with lovely names BUT also have ones which were the older version colours available and marked in some way that old gits like me could identify and then get things to the way our old brains/eyes were used to.

Sure, keep all the pop-up menu things and trendy icons, they must be lovely for those fashionable people and in time the rest of use will get used to them. Indeed, the option to have icons or text buttons already exists.

Finally, to make things even more simple for morons like myself, it would be great to have a theme which RESEMBLED the old theme with the 3D boxes, darker lines between the emails and the other stuff. Of course it only needs to RESEMBLE the older version and NOT REPLACE the new trendy version with all its essential fashionable things. Keep the bloody icons that you like, keep the pop up things, keep the three of four scroll sections that are really really cool, just please introduce the previous versions colour scheme as an option (or at least most of the colour scheme that you young scamps thing is still fashionable enough to be seen on Carnaby St.

Cheers.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 4/30/12 12:56 PM
Per request, the previous thread has been marked as a duplicate of this thread to re-direct all on-going discussions here.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Gmailisrunbyidiots 4/30/12 12:59 PM
I have some hope for the custom theme maker, and truly hope it allows me to alter frame sizes and the colors on individual elements. Really, right now, that, and the fact that I have been able to temporarily revert to the old version, are the only reasons I'm still here.

That being said, there is something google could do to change my mind. It's something they will have to work fairly hard at though, given that everything they have said so far has come out either as uncaring or self serving. They have to convince me that the new interface offers enough more benefits to <i>me</i> than the old one to offset the generally less user friendly interface. Note: I don't care what benefits it offers to Google. I don't care what benefits it offers to someone moving between their phone and a computer(I do this, but it has never been less than easy before, so making it more consistent won't actually add any value). I use it for email, and as a user ID for websites, and need it to be fairly uncomplicated. I rarely even check Google+, blogs, or any of the other services.

If you can't convince me that this will somehow make my experience at browsing Email better, rather than worse, then the old version is going to remain far superior. I shouldn't have to put in the effort to learn, customize, and adjust the interface on every machine I access gmail from without gaining some benefit that outweighs the effort.

The mandatory changeover was not handled well, many of the settings should have different defaults than what they have, and the entire thing is ugly design, which all of the currently existing themes keep. You have a hurdle to overcome if you don't want people to have a generally less favorable view of your product than they did a month ago.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 4/30/12 1:08 PM
Thank you sir.
Your response-time is frightening : )
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 4/30/12 1:18 PM
Pure luck that I just happened to see the new thread soon after you created it.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance HATE THE LOOK 4/30/12 2:11 PM
I agree with you.  The original gmail design was superior for readability.  I spend 8 hours a day or more looking at a computer screen--much of that time in e-mail.  Perhaps I will find some of the new abilities of the new look helpful, but I still need the old look for readability.  Programmers can do anything, so I know you can make the old look available.  Please listen to your users.  Many at my university have gone to Outlook because they dislike Gmail so much.  We used to have GroupWise; it was a far superior product to Gmail as far a businesses go.  I hope Google will look at excellent e-mail programs like Google and emulate their better features.

Also, I have to say I was stunned at the ugly conversations that took place on the previous forum.  I signed up so I can say how I feel about the new look and make suggestions for improvement, not to be inundated with useless personal attacks.  I hope this forum will be different.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance DiaLav 4/30/12 5:53 PM
I am new to this whole discussion group thing so please bare with me. I specifically signed on because of the new look and how much I to hate it!  However, your post above (Gmailisrunbyidiots) says we can still go back to the old look temporarily.  I have looked through the prior posts and I don't see instructions on how to do this so would you mind letting me know?  I too would like to use the old look for as long as possible.

What I don't understand is why aren't they listening to us?  There is not one person that I know who likes the new look---not one person and I happen to know  a lot of Gmail users.  I appreciate this new forum being created, but I have been giving negative feedback for months, to no avail.  I am not optimistic that this forum will provide us with a satisfactory outcome although I would like to be proven wrong.  All of a sudden they are going to listen to us, the customer, I doubt it very much.  It has been shoved down our throats and like others, it will be a massive job for me to switch to another provider.  I can assure you if it weren't such a large project for me, I would switch in a heartbeat. I am at my computer, at minimum, 10 hours a day with emails being a large part of that time. If a change is not made in the very near future, I am going to look at switching and I don't want to, but I don't know how to make them hear us and give us a choice.  Of course, one person won't make a difference, unfortunately.

I agree with most in that the colors are a huge problem and the lack of defined lines between messages is horrible on the eyes, but the problems are endless.  Those are just on the top of the list.  Why did they do this?  Why change the colors schemes?  I have my email and calendar completely color-coded which took hours to do and now my colors don't match--that's CRAZY.  It is just stupid and poor planning not to mention beyond frustrating.

Done with my venting, can you tell me how to switch to the old look even if temporary?  I appreciate it.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Gmailisrunbyidiots 5/1/12 6:33 AM
Well, I've seen a lot of the links marked as spam, and it should be understood that it is not supported, and likely to be going away or badly broken at any time, but there are instructions here that work for most people:
http://qwerjk.com/revert-gmail

That being said, I still hold out hope that the custom theme editor will be more than I suspect it will be.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Somnath. 5/1/12 11:08 AM
Since this thread is aimed exclusively towards improving Gmail function and appearance, I thought I would bring all up to pace on the list of things we are awaiting an update from Mr. Gawley.
  1. Custom / different themes
  2. Fixed top header
  3. Signature/message trimming
  4. Print draft emails
Also, towards the end of the previous post, there was some discussions regarding the efficacy of the color-coded names. Many believes it would be a more than cosmetic addition to a Gmail conversation, much in the similar manner it has contributed here in the help forum. Hopefully, this becomes the thread where that issue gets a proper mention and a balanced discussion as well.

With my best wishes,

P.S: Edited the post to remove the compact spacing in conversation view from the list above, as it has already been introduced.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Somnath. 5/1/12 12:12 PM
I loved the "highlighting" feature of the previous style, which was subtle, personable and yet professional, and I would prefer a different theme styling simply because I do not like how this new theme overwhelms the whole page. In my mind, no matter which color I pick, there is too much of that color in the screen!

With my best wishes,
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Somnath. 5/1/12 12:17 PM
For anyone interested/curious to read the previous threads to this one, please find them below in chronological order:
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bicho49 5/1/12 4:37 PM
What would happen if google REALLY CARED about their users:

ok, we implement this and this change to the new look... oh, and this one too... oh, and this one and that one... ok, one more or two... and a final one... VOILA! WE'RE READY!!  WELCOME TO THE OLD GMAIL!!

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bicho49 5/1/12 5:18 PM
Check this out, this is AN EXAMPLE OF CUSTOMER-ORIENTED PHILOSOPHY!!!
(SARCASM!!!)

SO NOW YOU'RE NOT ONLY GIVING US ABSOLUTELY NO DECISION POWER ON
KEEPING THE OLD LOOK OR THE NEW LOOK... BUT ALSO, WE WILL BE LOGGIN IN
EVERY SINGLE M.F. DAY WITHOUT KNOWING IF THE LABS WE HAVE TESTED FOR
HOURS WILL BE ACTIVE OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a look at this post by Jeff Chin, Product Manager, Google Translate on May 1st, 2012:
http://tecnologiayproductosgoogle.blogspot.mx/2012/05/diganle-hola-la...

"During the following days we will be removing some of the less popular
labs: Old Snakey, Mail Goggles, Mouse Gestures, Hide Unread Counts,
Move Icon Column, Inbox Preview, Custom Date Formats and SMS in Chat
gadget.

SO BECAUSE ONE LAB WE USE IS NOT USED BY MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF
USERS, "SCREW THE FEW ONES WHO DO USE IT", CONGRATULATIONS, THAT'S
"USER-ORIENTED" PHILOSOPHY!!!!!!!

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/1/12 6:02 PM
BUT ALSO, WE WILL BE LOGGIN IN EVERY SINGLE M.F. DAY WITHOUT KNOWING IF THE LABS WE HAVE TESTED FOR HOURS WILL BE ACTIVE OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

Taken right from the top of the labs page:

Gmail Labs is a testing ground for experimental features that aren't quite ready for primetime. They may change, break or disappear at any time.

If the risk of a lab vanishing is too much to deal with, then perhaps it would be best to not use them.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/2/12 7:36 AM
I have come to an odd realization.  I have been annoyed for a while about the lack of separation between the message body and the ads in the new gmail.  For me this makes gmail unreadable without running an ad-blocker, which for various reasons I prefer not to do.  Regrettably, since the forced roll-over, I have been forced to choose between :

A) An ad-blocker.
B) An add-on theme.
C) A new email provider.
At this point, I find the ad-blocker to be the least intrusive in my life.

I had originally assumed that this separation was removed to help google sell ads by making them more intrusive in our reading area.  Alex Gawley has strongly denied this, but neither he, nor anyone else at google will offer a justification for this decision except for vague noises about the ‘greatest good for the greatest number of users’

Anyhow, the realization is this:
When running an ad-blocker, having separation on the right would look decidedly odd, while if there is no line, it just looks a little lopsided.  If one designs the page assuming that users will run ad-blockers, then suddenly the decision to remove separation makes sense.

If this is the case, it brings up two questions:
A) Why the hell couldn’t someone just have the balls to say so?
B) What kind of company charges money to sell ads to other companies, while at the same time designing their service to incentivize behavior that devalues those ads?

If this is not the case, then  this decision becomes even more baffling and random.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance wdurham 5/2/12 7:49 AM
John - if you can face a userstyle (which is actually less potentially troublesome than a browser extension), try this one. 

I use it permanently, and apart from the colour coding which I still miss, it solves most of your complaints about this particular view:


If GMail changes conversation view again. it may break.  But then it's only a visual tweak of the CSS, not a change in how GMail functions. If it breaks, it might look messy, but is easily disabled from the Stylish Menu. 

Extensions are a whole new ball game and can actually break how GMail functions, rather than just changing how things look. AdBlock Plus did exactly that back in November when the new interface was launched - GMail users opening messages saw no message content at all. Naturally they blamed GMail. But we finally narrowed it down to the AdBlock Plus extension, which was simply blocking the message content. 

The developer was on the ball and updated within a day or so, but even so, users who did not connect their problem with AdBlock Plus didn't bother to go look for updates. Only those who came here and asked the question got the solution.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/2/12 8:38 AM
ABP is what I am using.  I have a good long list of reasons that I prefer not to use it, but I also  have a good long list of reasons that I prefer not to use styles, the list against styles happens to be longer.

At the end of the day, I guess I should add on a third question, to whit:
Why would google design a product that only runs optimally after it is modified by a third-party product?
Still assuming that this was the intention.

Note to google: I will gladly replace a supposition with a fact.  If one is ever in the offering.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Somnath. 5/2/12 9:22 AM
John,

In my opinion, more than helping to run Gmail optimally, these third-party scripts helps to satiate our individual desires to keep using features pertaining to the old look which are missing in the new one. Over time, we have come to consider several features essential to our efficient execution of tasks in Gmail. So much so that, in their absence, many do not hesitate to use external style scripts to import that missing sense of familiarity and comfort.

With my best wishes,
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/2/12 10:02 AM
Somnath, that makes good sense.
I just find it frustrating that I can (and have) demonstrate that the separation is:

More consistent with other google products.
More consistent with google's stated goals.
Offers a better user experience.

And the only arguments that I can see for not having separation are:

It makes ads more visible.
It does improve appearance IF you have an ad-blocker active.

Since Alex has firmly stated that ad visibility was not the reason for the removal of the separation, that leaves us with:

It is a page that is optimized for use with an ad-blocker (or third-party style)
It is a relatively random and unsupportable decision.

Either one of these would be an embarrassing admission for google to make, so I wish that they would either repair the problem, or offer a justification that I have somehow missed.

Considering the contents of page's letter, one would assume that an explanation would be forthcoming.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance romeolima 5/2/12 11:14 AM
Hi Gmailisrunbyidiots, I agree totally with what you say. What is the benefit to me as a user ? A lot of the features seem to be designed for a touch screen on a phone or tablet and although I have a touch screen on my phone my primary use is on my laptop. Has anyone worked out why there is a drag bar on the right for up/down but still nice clear arrows on the bottom for left/right ?
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jstevens1 5/2/12 11:39 AM
I agree with the sentiments expressed here. However, the problem with user styles is some browsers don't support them, and if you have to use a public or corporate computer, in most cases you're out of luck.

Also, I agree with John that separators are common elsewhere in implementations of the "new look". For example, look at the new design of Reader and you will see plenty of separators. In fact, I wish the new Gmail looked a lot more like Reader. It would make browsing emails much easier on the eyes at least for myself.

This leads me to a conclusion I've thought about for a long time. Would it be fair to surmise most of the Gmail team does not use the webmail interface? These issues are so obvious and widely reported, one could only assume they should be apparent for anyone using the webmail interface for an extended period of time. If you were just taking a glance, you might not realize how difficult it can be to use on a regular basis.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/2/12 11:56 AM
jstevens1
I asked that exact question a while ago.  Apparently Sarah does use the "Vanilla" interface with ads active and this is normal within the gmail group.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Sarah 5/2/12 6:10 PM
Hey Somnath, a quick summary inline:

On Tuesday, May 1, 2012 11:08:41 AM UTC-7, Somnath. wrote:
Since this thread is aimed exclusively towards improving Gmail function and appearance, I thought I would bring all up to pace on the list of things we are awaiting an update from Mr. Gawley.
  1. Custom / different themes
This feature is still in development and testing, but we hope to release it soon. I can't say specifically when it will be ready, but we will announce it on the Official Gmail Blog when it is released.
  1. Fixed top header
The top section (including the black bar) has undergone a number of small changes already since we first released the new look. We're continuing to look at ways to improve this space, but as Alex originally said, this is a difficult one to solve and you will see small incremental changes over time. It is unlikely we will have further updates to share in this area, since changes will happen incrementally over time.
  1. Signature/message trimming
Alex said we will continue to correct problems with the algorithm or overly aggressive behavior. An example was the bug that we fixed where valedictions (Sincerely, Love, Yours Truly, etc) weren't showing properly. I have seen some edge cases, but we're not aware of additional major issues with signatures at this time. We did report back in this forum when we corrected the above-mentioned issue. If you do see bugs, please do continue to let us know. Since we aren't aware of any other major issues, I don't have further updates.
  1. Print draft emails
This was not part of the list that Alex posted, but he did discuss it in a Hangout. It's something we cannot correct immediately, but hope to solve in the long run. We're aware of the feature request, although it may be some time before I have a new update.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Somnath. 5/2/12 9:13 PM
Ms. Price,

Thank you very much. This will put things in perspective for future discussions in this forum.

With my best wishes,
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/3/12 5:38 AM
Sarah, thank you for the update.

I really think that signature trimming should be a top contender for the ability to be turned off.  Originally I didn't care about this problem, but the more I am using the "new" format in my every-day life, the more it is driving me nuts.  A great example of the problems with sig-trimming is this forum.  If you get replies to the forum sent directly to your email, the link that allows you to come to this forum to reply* gets trimmed off, and I have to restore/expand it to get back here. 

I can understand why some people would like this option (for them a feature, for me a bug) but I would very much prefer to be without it. 

I also suspect that one of the many things causing people to have trust issues with google is the fact that google can't seem to be able to resist screwing around with our mail.  I want my mail to come to me exactly as it was sent.  I don't want it translated, I don't want dates to attempt to interact with my calendar, I don't want addresses to attempt to steer me to maps, I don't want the people widget (the only one I can actually control) to bring up a dossier on the sender, and I sure as hell don't want the message edited.  It is almost like you guys watched Microsoft's "The gmail man" skit and took it as a challenge.  As if you stood up and said " You think THAT is intrusive?  Watch what else we can do!"

I understand that the content may be computer scanned for targeted ads, and although I find that as distasteful as hell for now I am willing to live with it.  Still, there is no need to throw it in our faces.

These interferences may be useful to some people, I'm not saying that they need to be deleted.  I just want my mail to come to me.  Plain, simple, and not screwed with.  Why is that so hard?

Really trying to keep this productive:
John

*why the hell can't I reply directly, I can do that with yahoo-groups? and that is a totally different provider!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFCSp23xl40
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Gmailisrunbyidiots 5/3/12 6:11 AM
Why is it we can't turn off the signature trimming? it's obvious that a fairly large number of people don't care for it, and that a fairly large number want it. It seems like the ideal would be to make it optional.(preferably defaulting to off)
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance thomasxz 5/3/12 11:57 AM
I found an interesting mail provider, Yandex.

https://mail.yandex.com

Is has dead simple mail design, it combines smiliar message, you have as standard 10gb of mail space, it should increase when you have used it up.

You can chose to use an light version, whihc is even more simple, than there standard simple design.

The have text button which icon in stand, text only in light.

it is very interesting mail provider.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance dianadiana 5/3/12 12:58 PM
Yes, just give me my mail and also let me move around my inbox columns so that I can see the paperclip by the persons name and not all the way over by the date
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance HATE THE LOOK 5/3/12 1:37 PM
Yes, please put the paperclip by the person's name.  That's one of the first things I look for.  Having it by the date is not as helpful.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance wdurham 5/3/12 2:02 PM
John - I can't comment on your main thrust, but re: your point about replying directly to this Forum via email....

With a private Google Group, as well as a private Yahoo Group, then yes, you can reply by email. I belong to several such groups which I always manage via email. My email address is clearly visible in all my posts/responses, but as it is a private group, which is non-searchable online, it is only exposed to people I have willingly joined up with - and, presumably, to people I know and trust.  

But a Google Product Forum is not a private invitation-only closed group, or even a private subscription-only group. It is fully public and searchable on-line. Therefore Forum users must be anonymous, and that has to mean no email addresses.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance alansd 5/3/12 3:02 PM
I don't see why, at the very least, google doesn't provide this CSS tweak on top of their new look. It doesn't seem to require any additional code base maintenance. Of course, the CSS doesn't bring back all of the good features of the  old look, but it would be better than nothing. For now, I use the qwerjk trick, and cross my fingers that gmail will retire the old look code for good only after doing something to improve the usability of the new look.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance alansd 5/3/12 3:07 PM
It does somewhat resemble the old gmail.... Might be worth considering
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/4/12 3:13 AM
wdurham
That makes far too much sense, and I am ashamed for not having thought of it. 
Thank you:
John
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Funderbunk 5/4/12 4:34 PM
On Wednesday, May 2, 2012 9:10:35 PM UTC-4, Sarah wrote:
> This feature is still in development and testing, but we hope to release it soon. I can't say specifically when it will be ready, but we will announce it on the Official Gmail Blog when it is released.

Again, I have to emphasize - if the "custom theme" creator that you're working on is only an option of a user-selectable background image with only a few color options for interface items, IT. WILL. NOT. BE. ENOUGH.

You NEED to give users as much control over color options as the old one did, and ideally, even more. This is not just for aesthetics; this would assist users who have vision issues who had previously found color combinations that worked *for them*. You HAVE to give users the choice to make something ugly, because while it may be a color combination that is hideous to Google's designers, it may be what they need. Vision problems are not a "one size fits all" issue; one or two themes isn't going to cut it.

Don't be typical Google arrogant. This alone would defeat a majority of the complaints, but only doing this half way will only anger users even more.

> Alex said we will continue to correct problems with the algorithm or overly aggressive behavior. An example was the bug that we fixed where valedictions (Sincerely, Love, Yours Truly, etc) weren&#39;t showing properly. I have seen some edge cases, but we're not aware of additional major issues with signatures at this time. We did report back in this forum when we corrected the above-mentioned issue. If you do see bugs, please do continue to let us know. Since we aren't aware of any other major issues, I don't have further updates.

Not aware of any major issues? There are several threads on this very forum about major issues with this mess.This entire "feature" sounds like a bug. Honestly, this should be an optional feature, and should be turned off by default. Deciding which content is not important by default - and without even the option to turn this "feature" off - is so ridiculously arrogant, it's even surprising coming from Google.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance killer90tracks 5/4/12 9:06 PM
well i just spent a few weeks in the dprk and come back to find my email is utterly useless.  even with compact there is still heaps of wasted space, hi contrast uses a dull grey for msg txt which isnt hi contrast and there are no decent lines separating the various elements... sigh :(
This message has been hidden because it was flagged for abuse.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Mad Mister Mark 5/6/12 6:47 AM
Sarah,
First let me offer a bit of compassion and empathy for you being a first-line responder to the firestorm against the new look.  That said, I also have to note all actions have their consequences...

I do not like the new interface, and I feel it is a misunderstanding of branding that assumes brand is a visual thing.  Apple's brand has always been visual.  Google's brand has always been about great functionality.  Visual uniformity doesn't really strengthen or weaken the brand in my opinion.  Even Google's logo changes to doodles on a semi-regular basis (something Apple's apple would never dream of doing), which implies visual flexibility in the brand.

Every morning when I sign on to Gmail (which used to be one of my
favorite moments of the day), I now groan, get disgusted, and sign
out. I now read most of my Gmail on my iPhone or iPad, just because
it's easier to digest quickly. I am going to be forced soon to access
my Gmail at my desktop through Outlook just to be able to maintain
productivity. All of these workarounds defeat the purpose of friendly,
web-based email, which used to be Gmail's best quality.  My only other
option is to change services, and I must admit I am doing research. A
shame really, because I am usually a die-hard Google fan. This new
look debacle, though, has really left a bad taste in my mouth.

There are some specific issues that could be fixed if the option to use the old
version is absolutely off the table (which I hope isn't the case).  I realize some of these have been addressed earlier in the forum, and some fixes are allegedly in the works, but I'm going include them here anyway:

1) Give the option for the Inbox background to be white while having
contrasting color on the sides and header. The low-contrast gray (or
worse semi-transparent!) background makes it very difficult to "see"
what I'm looking for.

2) Speed. The new interface is significantly slower and feels
'klunky'.

3) Offer completely customizable theme options, so that users can
define color, font, spacing for each element of the design.  At least
then it would be possible to approximate the more user-friendly looks
of the previous version.

4) Offer an option to keep all header buttons visible at all times,
instead of toggling back and forth when moving in and out of messages.

5) Make the rollover pop-up 'learn more about...' boxes disappear when
the mouse moves off. They block access to functionality, and I'm using
Chrome, so I wouldn't think this is a browser bug.

Please note, that I have replied consistently throughout the initial roll-out beta phase for the new look and every day since it was made mandatory.  

While I have tried to keep my comments as professional as possible, I know other comments have been hostile and vitriolic.  Rather than make the reactive, personal response to shut these comments down and stop discourse, the wiser business approach would be to realize such energy and emotion comes from people who are passionate about your product.  These are the kind of customers who build cult brands like Apple, Harley Davidson, Prada, and once up on a time, Google...

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/6/12 7:52 AM
Nearly every option you want is available using Stylish which WDurhan has posted about many times including in this thread. Also read The New Gmail buttons
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Mad Mister Mark 5/6/12 8:15 AM
C Man, if your response is to me, I've tried Stylish.  None of what I mentioned is fixable using any user style I've come across, and Stylish is extremely buggy.  Furthermore, the idea of having to download third-party widgets to use a product means the flaw lies in the product, not the user.  Of course, I suppose the easiest answer is to blame the customer for not reacting well to change, or what seems to be Google's incomprehensible customer service reply, "if you don't like the new interface, use someone else's product."  The whole thing reminds me of the New Coke launch in the 80s...
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/6/12 8:32 AM
I do not blame the users but the options are there and I will post a picture of my Inbox. If I had not found them working for myself I would not be using third party apps.

New Coke lasted seven years and you really need to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke because it marked the turn around that eventually allowed Coca-Cola to improve it's marketing strategy and sales against the rival that had overtaken it.



Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/6/12 2:22 PM
Receiving that screenshot to my email just demonstrated a bug quite nicely.
Not something I don't like.  A bug.
If an image is attached to an email, then gmail will force all text in that conversation to be of an equal or greater width than the image. 
If the image is wider than your preferred browser window, the entire conversation becomes unreadable until you re-size your browser.
If you do not see how this is a problem, let me know, and I will post an image that is simply a white field, one pixel high, and eight -thousand pixels wide, thus rendering this entire thread unreadable in digest view until you tell gmail to stop opening pictures.  As a single white line, I'll bet the average Joe couldn't even figure out why all paragraphs had been forced to a single line.  Unless they had read this post that is.
Anyhow, there is the exploit.  Have fun, and please fix this rather foolish error.  Perhaps by having images rescale to the browser, or at least get trimmed.
(yes, I have submitted a bug report.  No I do not have faith that a human reads those.)
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/6/12 2:26 PM
Here is what I see (as mentioned previously, I like a square or "tall" browser window)
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/6/12 2:36 PM
Sorry John but if I had known you were using a small screen I would have used a smaller png (the size is alterable). There is a problem at the moment which the Engineers are trying to sort out.

Can you give details of screen resolution, machine and browser?
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/6/12 3:01 PM
John,

No! I'm saying that it is not a good example to use. Unfortunately it seems to be the only one anybody references.It seems that too may are taking the advice from what happened to Coca-Cola (don't know if you read it) but it was a minority that forced what the man and woman in the street had chosen as a better flavour to be abandoned. I hope you can understand that statement but if not please read the article I posted the link to. A minority of people who could not accept that there could be a change possibly for the better forced Coke to go back.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Gmailisrunbyidiots 5/6/12 3:36 PM
except if it was just a vocal minority, New coke would still be outselling Coke classic. New coke wasn't discontinued until the early 2000s.

I think the most important line in that particular article was this:
"Coke spent a considerable amount of time trying to figure out where it had made a mistake, ultimately concluding that it had underestimated the public impact of the portion of the customer base that would be alienated by the switch."

Although, I do have to day I have some issues with the article quoted, mostly due to contradictions in detail with the article at snopes, linked here:http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/newcoke.asp

However, I would argue that the comparison is apt; the company, in trying to make changes to make their product better, willingly threw the sacred cows of their previous product under the bus. Private testers declaimed the new product as better, even though a large minority vvocally disliked it. the old product was gotten rid of anyway, to a loud outcry. This in turn made many people who hadn't given themselves a chance to get used to it hate the product.

WHich company did I just describe?

There are differences of course. No analogy is actually all that good. Personally, I think the people who dislike the new gmail have a lot more reason to dislike the product than those with new coke.

For one thing, in today's world, Email has a lot more impact on daily lives and productivity than soda ever did, and the complaints are not all matters of taste.

In addition, the reversion of coke had a lot to do with competing companies providing market forces that actually pushed them to listen to the "vocal minority" which obviously had a much larger impact on sales than expected. Gmail doesn't have the same level of competition--people are far less willing to switch providers.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/6/12 4:03 PM
GSRBI,

Did you read the article to see how the pressure group forced the decision? They managed to persuade the majority the old version was better. They were correct for the wrong reasons. It was a less healthy option as the sugar content had been increased beyond any reasonably amount.

Personally I will not drink Pepsi in the UK as it is full of additives with nothing natural in it at all.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Somnath. 5/6/12 11:49 PM
Now that the image display issue in chat lists is addressed (already posted a Thank you in the appropriate thread), it leaves me with three  inconveniences:
  1. The very unpredictable signature trimming feature.
  2. The lack of color-coded names with the colors inside the blank avatars not sufficiently brighter/larger to grab attention, and
  3. The inability to change background and font color in the email viewport. (I would want them as in the image The C Man attached to his post on May 6th)
With my best wishes,
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/7/12 12:21 AM
John,

I hope the edited png meets your approval.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/7/12 12:25 AM
Somnath,

3 is something I did myself using Stylish and I am sure an old codger such as myself is only half as good as you at changing it to what you want.


Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/7/12 3:34 AM
The C Man

Actually, I am looking at this on a 22" widescreen at 1920X1080.  Making my effective browsing window about 1500 pixels square, or approximately 9" square in "real life"

I am certainly not complaining about the size of the image you posted.  I am just using it as an example of a genuine exploitable bug in the new gmail.  It feels kind of good to occasionally be able to say "this is broken" as opposed to "This is inconvenient" or "This is ugly."

Statements of objective rather that subjective fact is firmer ground to stand on.

At the endof the day, the images should crop or scale to the text (or, more to the point, the window size) rather than the test scaling to the image.  To do otherwise is just foolish.  However, I am sure that the goofle designers have iron-clad reasons that their way is better.  Just as I am sure that they will never give those reasons (Thereby giving king page the lie) so that said reasons will never have to stand up to scrutiny.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/7/12 5:24 AM
The C Man
Also, how do we know that google engineers are working on this?  It is not listed under "Known Issues"
Thanks:
John
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/7/12 7:22 AM
John,

You know the reason why I should trust me. Because I have never lied to you or distorted the truth.
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/7/12 7:41 AM
danpr987,

Even if only one person was in favour then there would be less than 100% in opposition, Sounds about equivalent to the claims that nobody likes the new Gmail layout. Vastly overestimated.
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/7/12 8:24 AM
The C Man
I apologize.  I did not mean to question your word.  You have always been honest with me.
If you say that they are working on it, I trust you fully.

I intended my question in a more general way; striking at the issue of a lack of accountability within the google culture.

google says (through you) that they know that there is a problem and that they are working on it.  That makes it a known issue.  and yet they do not have it listed as such.

Even when they do list a known issue, they seldom, if ever, update the problems, sometimes even leaving tickets open long after they are closed.  Or worse, developing a workaround, and simply closing the issue without listing or linking to the workaround. (the +what's hot problem did both)

I accept that google knows that this is an issue. 
What I should have asked would be: "If they know, why are they failing to list it as a known issue? and generally, why are they so sloppy with their Known Issue reporting."

As always, thank you for your time and consideration:
John


Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance thomasxz 5/7/12 10:48 AM
I'am glad that gmail has fixes a big error, but to bad for them i have already changed mail provider.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/7/12 10:58 AM
Anyhow.  I had originally logged on this weekend to bring up an issue that is totally separate from attached images breaking messages.

I know that larry knows deep in his heart that the more we use the new look, the more we love it.  For myself however, familiarity truly is breading contempt.  There are issues that I never noticed when I was only using it on my rather quiet secondary account that are really starting to grate in every-day use.  Yes, google has fixed some of the problems, but some that have taken a while to really annoy me are baffleingly bad.

When you reply to an email, there are top and bottom "send" buttons.
When you post in this forum, there are top and bottom "send" buttons.
Writing is a top to bottom process, and writing an email doubly so with the "To:" being above the "Subject" and the "Subject" being above the message body.
So why on earth is there no "send" button at the bottom of the email compose window?

What makes this worse is that I (and probably many other people) reply to more emails than I originate, so I get very used to having that bottom send button; however, anytime that I initiate an email, the lack of the familiar lower "Send" button causes me a moment of confusion, searching, and fruitless down-scrolling.  Every single time.  It would be like driving a car, and every fifth time you wanted to hit the breaks, the break peddle moved to the other side of the gas.  You may know it is going to happen, but it doesn't stop you from flailing momentarily.

It is poor layout to have top and bottom "Send" buttons in "reply" but only a "Top" send button in "Compose"  These two functions should have "send" buttons in the exact same places relative to the message body.  As composing an email is a top to bottom exercise, the "Send" button should be at the bottom.  In cases of short notes, I can see how a top button may also be useful.  But by no means should there be different button configurations for those two (otherwise functionally identical) processes.


Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/7/12 11:37 AM
John,

You are definitely having a giggle so it's a good think I have a sense of humour or I might have taken you seriously.

Only one send button at the top in a Compose? True but it is frozen in place and I can hear the screams of rage about how dare anybody take my valuable typing space away. Bottom of text area to send button is no more than 30 mm on my mat.

Top and bottom in Reply? Of course but that is a window within a window and the top could slide up out of sight.

Little secret for you. I have a rotating screen which I turn to vertical when I have to compose long replies to long posts so I can see them both at the same time. I am thinking of having two monitors permanently set up so one is used for responses such as this and the other to do my normal viewing on.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance GMail is GFail 5/7/12 12:09 PM
On Monday, May 7, 2012 2:37:17 PM UTC-4, The C Man (Elder Advisor - Mobile Laureate) wrote:
> John,
>
> You are definitely having a giggle so it&#39;s a good think I have a sense of humour or I might have taken you seriously.

>
> Only one send button at the top in a Compose? True but it is frozen in place and I can hear the screams of rage about how dare anybody take my valuable typing space away. Bottom of text area to send button is no more than 30 mm on my mat.
>
> Top and bottom in Reply? Of course but that is a window within a window and the top could slide up out of sight.
>
> Little secret for you. I have a rotating screen which I turn to vertical when I have to compose long replies to long posts so I can see them both at the same time. I am thinking of having two monitors permanently set up so one is used for responses such as this and the other to do my normal viewing on.

Another typical C Man arrogant, annoying, and completely unhelpful response. John VanRoekel posts about a legitimate design flaw that Google really should consider - the kind of detailed, specific feedback we've been told over and over that Google really wants to hear from us lowly users, instead of general complaints - and you dismiss it as if he were joking.  

The fact that your arrogant antagonistic dealings with users runs unchecked here speaks volumes about Google's attitude about users. I have a hunch I know what the C stands for, and it rhymes with stunt.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/7/12 12:13 PM
Nope The C Man, Serious as a heart-attack.

Where they are wasting typing space is double-spacing everything around the "Too" and "Subject" lines.  There is a huge difference between "wasting" space and "Using" space, adding a "Send" button at the bottom would be an example of the latter.

However, I can see your point. After-all, outlook just has a single button at the top, and they are pretty popular.  If google wants to go to "One button at the top" then they need to remove the one from the bottom of the "reply" page.  The idea is that the "send" button should be in the exact same place relative to the email regardless of what you pressed to get there. 

If it is always at the top, then I will always to to the top to "Send."  If it is always at the bottom, then I will always go to the bottom.  If it is usually at the bottom, than I will go to the bottom, and then get annoyed when it fails to be there.

It is one thing for google to make buttons conditionally disappear when they are not going to be used, it is another to make buttons conditionally disappear when they very likely are going to be used.

Best:
John
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Notes+ 5/7/12 12:16 PM
Readong through some of the C Mans posts quickly turns irritating, I just ignore what he/she writes as it is just snide rubbish.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Notes+ 5/7/12 12:16 PM
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance ppcrn 5/7/12 12:17 PM
Fixing the stupid "Sent items" box would be phenomenal....I cant stand that sent items are all clumped in one folder and cannot be truly "moved" to any folder of my choice. The only other email client that I have seen that in in Lotus Notes, which is as obsolete as can be.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Sarah 5/7/12 12:31 PM
Hey John, thanks for the thoughtful feedback on the send buttons. It's a difficult problem. As The C Man pointed out, replies are different from a new Compose because they are occurring inline in the middle of a conversation. With Compose, there is just one message you could be writing, so we can stick the Send button into the top toolbar and it will stick as you scroll up and down.

By contrast, when you reply to an existing conversation, you could be replying to any message in the conversation -- in fact, you can open multiple replies at once. The send button wouldn't make sense in the top toolbar if you are only reading and not replying. If we put it there anyway, and you had two drafts open replying to two different messages in the conversation, we wouldn't know which to send. Since it doesn't make sense to put the send button into the sticky toolbar, it can scroll out of sight, which is why you will also find it at the bottom of the message.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/7/12 12:34 PM
John,

What you call wasted space around the subject lines is where I drag and drop attachments and at my age the target area has to be large.

If you typed three screens length as a reply then you would not be happy to have to scroll from bottom to top (specially on a netbook) to find the single Send button so the bottom one will do me nicely as the text area expands upwards leaving this one in place. Yes there would be a good reason for only having one at the bottom but some people do not have their screen adjusted corrected to the proper size ............................... and I'm not going to leave this unsent but my thanks to Sarah.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/7/12 12:38 PM
To those who make snide comments. Yes, I do try to keep it humorous but the answers I give are serious.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/7/12 1:29 PM
Thank you Sarah.

I am not talking about adding a "Send" button in the top fixed frame for replies.  The top "Send" button in-frame with a reply is in the same place relative to the message-body as the fixed "Send" button is in the compose, So I think that the top buttons are both well-handled.  No complaints there (Shocking, I know : )

Where I keep pulling my hair is that in a reply I find the bottom "Send" button to be far more convenient than the top one.  Therefore when replying I always use the bottom button, and since I "Reply" far more often than I "Compose" I get in the habit of clicking at the bottom of the message to send.

Naturally I would personally prefer a "Send" button added at the bottom of the compose frame, but what I would really push for would be consistent behavior between the two ways of sending an email. 

Thank You again for the reply:
John

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Sarah 5/7/12 1:41 PM
Thanks John -- yep, I understand the feedback, just wanted to give some context. I can't make any promises, but we're discussing "send" for the bottom of Compose.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/7/12 2:11 PM
Hey, if it is "on the table" I am glad to hear it.
Thank you a lot for the feedback : )
John
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Himeno 5/8/12 5:39 AM
Why can I no longer change the reply from address in html mode? Was this option removed in order to force people into using something that remains unuseable?
There also appears to no longer be any way to change back to html mode from within the new interface. It seems that the only way to do so now is if you manage to catch the link at the bottom of the screen while gmail is loading.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/8/12 10:50 AM
It seems that the only way to do so now is if you manage to catch the link at the bottom of the screen while gmail is loading.

Or use the direct URL when you sign in:  https://mail.google.com/?ui=html 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/9/12 3:42 AM
Mine is based on the 349,999,988 that have not complained about it. Puts about 12 on your side.

Sorry to take so long coming back but I had to do a count and my wife called me for dinner half way through causing me to lose count.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/9/12 5:11 AM
Ah, but failing to express an opinion is not the same as having done so.  Therefore, by your count, 100% of those who have bothered to express an opinion have expressed it negatively.  Perhaps google has some actual random polling on the subject that they would care to share.  If it is positive and vindicates their decision, I am sure that they would be able to show us at least the bare bones of such polling. . .

Besides, sometimes it takes a while for this to become a problem, I had originally not noticed, or been bothered by, sig-trimming, until it trimmed vital information off the tail of an email.  Now, I notice it every time gmail does it, and I have to take action EVERY time to check to see how they have censored my mail without my permission.  This has become exceptionally odious to me.

In the meantime, All I can suggest is that EVERY time that gmail applies trimming that causes you inconvenience, you take the time to submit a bug report. (Click "Gear" -> "Report a Bug") and point out that this is a problem.  If problems are not reported, google will not fix them.

John
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/9/12 5:46 AM
I also note that attached wide pictures causing issues with text is still not listed as a known issue.
I would like to know if there is a reason for that.
John
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/9/12 7:01 AM
Odd that they have removed the "report a bug" from the exceptionally buggy forums.  Perhaps they were swamped.

However, there is still a "report a bug" option under the gmail "Gear."  Because of the way reporting works, you have to use the gear icon on the window that has the problem.

Keep in mind that the offensive and intrusive "What's hot" under + was a "feature" but we got google to kill it with user pressure, so all hope is not lost!
 
I hope that this helps:
John

(edited for grammar)
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/9/12 7:15 AM
I also just realized that if:

"Signatures are being hidden to keep unimportant information from me"
about 90% of the information in most social emails is "fluff" or "unimportant" but for the most part, that is what makes the emails worth reading.  Sure, I may know that my wife loves me, and that information may be "Unimportant" to google, but I sure as hell don't want anyone editing it out!

Sig-trimming is an indefensible intrusion.  goofle needs to realize that.

John

(Edit for typo)
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance wdurham 5/9/12 7:17 AM
John - I don't believe this is an issue. 

Whenever GMail encounters an object in a message that it cannot wrap, like an overlarge picture or a fixed-width HTML object, it expands the message window widthways to accommodate that object, and your browser should then give you a horizontal scroll bar to enable you to see the full width by scrolling. 

I have never seen any other behaviour in GMail, in either the old or new interfaces. That behaviour is replicated on the majority of websites, including this forum. If an object is too wide to display in the space available on the screen/window size you are using and cannot be wrapped - unlike text which can always be wrapped - then the window expands widthways to accommodate the object.

As an ex-website creator (my skills couldn't keep up with the advances in HTML specs so I stopped!), I was always aware that images and other fixed width elements had to be sized to be visible to users with even the lowest available screen resolution/window size, or this would mess up my carefully tabulated pages and would force viewers to have to scroll horizontally.  
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/9/12 7:38 AM
According to The C Man, google acknowledges that large image attachments causing text scaling it is a problem, according to wdurham, it is not.  Then-again, google apparently only acknowledges this to TCs, and figures the rest of us don't need to know.

Many websites actually do scale pictures to fit the available space.  Heck, my wife's personal site can do it, so I am amazed that it is such a problem for gmail.  Then again, she works with websites professionally.

John

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/9/12 7:44 AM
It should be just a bit lower.
Take a look:
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/9/12 9:30 AM
John,

I rescaled the image to allow you to see without scrolling. WDurham is correct and the same action/reaction can be seen in emails to and from yourself if you try it. Surely you have seen this happen with some advertising mail that comes to yourself. There is a problem at the moment in the fora which has nothing to do with that caused by my overlarge image but it does not affect you so no need to worry.

Please attempt a little understanding. I looked at the reason for the difference in the design of placing send buttons and worked it out for myself. My logic was verified by Sarah.

I do not like the new Gmail layout but with the use of Stylish I have made it my own and a pleasure to work with. What other email service allows you or causes you to use your own artistic skills to create your own individual page? Vanilla is nice but with sprinkles and syrup can be better.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Notes+ 5/9/12 9:37 AM
Cow-pats are not very tasty, and a load of flies sprinkled on top don't make them any nicer, but its what comes out of the cows arse. Google has produced a monster cow-pat and sadly we are the flies :-(
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance wdurham 5/9/12 9:59 AM
That is not what I said, John.

I have not seen that Google have acknowledged this web-wide standard behaviour as a "problem" that needs "fixing". 

For example of the "web-wide" nature of this business of oversize objects, I belong to a couple of financial forums. If someone sends a very long link that can't wrap, then the entire forum window expands widthways to accommodate that link. It's a real nuisance - but it is standard behaviour. The cure, of course, is something like Tiny URL or similar. Similarly, if someone inserts a gigantic image inline, the same thing happens. It's standard behaviour. 

It's a problem for you because you have contacts who send you huge images or oversize HTML objects - like the C Man's large attachment  mentioned above. When he controlled the size of what he was sending, the the problem went away. Your contacts can control the size of what they send, and they should control it. If they can't be bothered, then you are stuck with what you get. You can't control it - all you can do is scroll horizontally to see the entire object you have been sent.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/9/12 10:01 AM
danpr987,

This deserves investigation so which browser and version on what type of machine (Operating System) and with what antivirus enabled?
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/9/12 10:11 AM
Ah, but google does not "allow" us to use our own artistic skills to create our own pages.  If we are very lucky, and lead good clean lives they may let us have a picture.

Many emails let you have a picture.

As for what you are doing with stylish, there is a difference between google "allowing" it and google "having no control over it."  This is the later.  You can modify ANY web-based email that uses CSS, google is just especially ripe for it because of the turd of an interface they cranked out combined with the number of loyal users who want to use it in-spite of said turd.  google actually urges people not to use CSS hacks to repair the damage that they have done (while, at the same time, linking to said hacks)
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/9/12 10:24 AM
I really hope it is not being phased out.  Perhaps Sarah would like to weigh in on this?
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/9/12 11:01 AM
wdurham, I did not say that you had acknowledged it as a problem that needs fixing.

I stated that it was a problem that needs fixing, and The C Man, stated in reply "There is a problem at the moment which the Engineers are trying to sort out." referring to the folks at google. and I cited that as an an acknowledgment that google viewed it as a problem.

I stated specifically that you did not think it needed fixing, as I considered that an accurate paraphrase of "I don't believe this is an issue." If I misrepresented you, that was not my intent.

John
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/9/12 11:17 AM
danpr987 (first name would be nice),

Going to ask that you give the full details in a new question (the screenshot would be nice please) and post the url back to here so I can get some additional help in investigating this. Please include any addons, extensions and anything else you feel might be important.
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/9/12 11:57 AM
It may not be a big deal for you, but it scares the willies out of me.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/9/12 12:12 PM
The good news is that I just notice that while the buggy forums DO lack a "Report a bug" option, they do have an "Report an Issue about google groups"
I just used it to report the useless yellow flashing bank of "1000"s on the left there
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bicho49 5/9/12 12:14 PM
oh! me! I have an idea to help improve gmail! STOP DELETING LABS THAT WE ARE USING FROM ONE DAY TO THE NEXT! There are countless claims to bring "mouse gestures", "move icon bar to the left" and other labs that were authoritarily inactivated as of May this year... WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? WHY DELETE LABS THAT SO MANY OF US ARE USING?

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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/9/12 12:30 PM
There are also no google groups to discuss the top-bar.  I hate the ugly red ticker next to my name, but nobody will take credit for it.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/9/12 12:38 PM
danpr987,

It is worth reporting and the reason for taking it out of this thread is not many TC's will go near a thread where they are likely to get attacked for trying to help or the thread be overrun by others using it for their own ends plus it may be possible to get an Employees help.

Being able to report a bug  is one if the most important needs of any system.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Sarah 5/9/12 1:00 PM
OK guys, a whole bunch for me to chime in on here:

Report a bug in Gmail: We're always experimenting and trying different ways to hear from our users. Your Gmail may sometimes differ slightly from others' Gmail.

Horizontal scrolling due to large inline images: This is expected. Images have a pixel width and if the width does not fit, you can scroll horizontally. I believe there may have been some confusion and a mixup due to a horizontal scrolling issue in this forum, which is a bug we are working to fix.

Top bar: The best place to talk about the red notification box is the Google+ forum.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/9/12 1:59 PM
For Horizontal scrolling due to large inline images, I understand the image having to be scrolled (although a scale would be a far more elegant solution) but having the text scale to the image is terrible.  The image can do as it pleases, but the text should wrap based on window size.  Reading long lines of text while scrolling is a real pain.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Sarah 5/9/12 3:13 PM
Thanks John, I'll check with the team on whether that would be possible.

Best,
Sarah
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bicho49 5/9/12 4:21 PM
To Sarah:

What about the labs that Gmail keeps de-activating overnight??? Will this also go on forever?? And what about all the claims to bring back some of these labs??? PLEAAAAAAAASE!!!!!!

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Sarah 5/9/12 6:03 PM
Hi bicho49, I understand your frustration with the recent retirement of some of the Gmail Labs features. Gmail Labs are experimental features that aren't ready to be part of Gmail. Being a lab does not mean a feature is a permanent part of Gmail, and we graduate or retire labs periodically. It's always a difficult decision to retire a lab. There are user-created extensions for some of the retired labs, like Mouse Gestures.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Somnath. 5/9/12 11:51 PM
bicho49,

Looks like someone is attempting to bring the mouse gestures back in chrome webstore. :)

With my best wishes,
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Himeno 5/10/12 4:02 AM
If you don't want the red ticker, get rid of G+.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/10/12 5:14 AM
Thank you Sarah.  I will admit that right now this is more an inconvenience than anything else.
However, considering that most people's displays are generally under 2k pixels wide, and the average cell phone camera with a 5mp sensor is taking pictures with a width closer to 2.5k (with still cameras generally over 4K wide) and the proliferation of photo-sharing, this problem will become more and more common.  Best to get out ahead of it.  The tech is there, and people will be happier if it simply never becomes a problem in their lives.

Best:
John
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/10/12 6:10 AM
I just realized why the lack of photo-scaling drives me so nuts.  At my job I use outlook all day long, often sending and receiving pictures, and outlook handles large pictures brilliantly.
I know that outlook operates in a completely different way, not being web-based, but when I have to handle an image in gmail, my regular use of outlook throws the problem into stark relief.
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/11/12 2:19 AM
I thought you were posting because you really cared (possibly for your fellow users) about what Gmail was turning into. Personally I would still ask you to go that one step further but the choice is yours.
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Mad Mister Mark 5/13/12 1:58 PM
Ugh, C Man.  This is just the sort of snarky, condescending, Fox News-ish response that seems to indicate Google's customer service approach these days.  I assume your dubious title 'Elder Advisor' means you're supposed to be some sort of Google insider mouthpiece.  If I were Google, I would not want you anywhere near my customers.  But I am not Google...

I wonder how many of those 349,999,988 you mention actually use the Google interface?  Most, I would imagine, route through to Thunderbird, Outlook or the like.  And it is an amateur mistake to think that those who are not complaining are happy with the product.  Anyone who's ever taken a Marketing 101 class knows better.

But I've reached my limit.  I'm tired of watching customer after customer raise the same issues only to be dismissed by Google staff (and their lackeys) as whining, inflexible curmudgeons.

Google has lost my respect and my business.  I will now start the laborious process of moving my productivity hub away from the Google product suite and finding something else.  And I will comment about it every step of the way, on Facebook, on Twitter, and to my friends and business colleagues (who have previously heard my glowing praise of Google products).  

What does it matter what I think or do, though?  I'm just one customer.  You obviously have 349,999,988 loyal fans standing by to help you congratulate yourselves.

Keep up the good work.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/13/12 2:34 PM
I am not employed by Google and I doubt if I would get a job in Customer Service. I'm just a target for everybody who thinks they have to make a comment and since I am the most picked on I'm an easy shot.

Can I ask what business you gave Google and specifically Gmail. Did you ever click on an advert you saw in Gmail? Would the amount of adverts you clicked on have covered the cost of the services you received?

I have never clicked on a Gmail advert but I have given back something in other ways.

Each to our own in our own way. I don't believe Gmail pays for itself through it's client base so if the bill p[ayers think there is a way of making it at least cover it's cost I'll accept and adapt.

By the way "I am a curmudgeon".
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/13/12 7:13 PM
In the interest of clarity, might the quote below in green be an example of a "serious" contribution to the discussion?
 
Even if only one person was in favour then there would be less than 100% in opposition, Sounds about equivalent to the claims that nobody likes the new Gmail layout. Vastly overestimated.
In furtherance of the process of clarification and as the subject of "snide comments" has been raised by a TC I wonder if an example of such a comment posted in this thread could be presented to us.
 
Thank you.
 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/13/12 9:40 PM
The problem with an analogy to the coke fiasco is that it doesn't cover the point that a product was changed here at Google, Inc. to boost the profitability of another product.
 
It becomes clearer and clearer that all this is designed for the purpose of meshing Google+ with an existing and much used product, Gmail.  There is Google+ stuff all over my Gmail account that I cannot get rid of.  That Google, Inc. will not allow me to get rid of.  And it is legal.  They can bloody well do whatever they want with their products and if they want to screw the customer in the process it is quite legal.  Unless we can find a hole in the way they are doing this that shows they are somehow breaking a law related to our privacy rights.  That is the new tack that some of us have decided to work on, by the way.  Unfortunately, that is an expensive process.  Those lawyer types don't work for free.
 
And now the person who asked the question in email correspondence has the answer here in a public venue.  Of course, you have already seen my many posts about the shareholders, but the legal bit is just as expensive.  And takes time.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/13/12 9:54 PM
It becomes clearer and clearer that all this is designed for the purpose of meshing Google+ with an existing and much used product, Gmail.  

This touches on a point that bothers me about the new format of the conversation view.  To me, it looks too much like chat, or wave (or I suppose G+).  E-mail is not chat.  The reverse is also true.  I want my conversation view to look like e-mail (and at the risk of being myopic) the way it used to; not like chat.

I can live with most of the other new look changes, but the conversation view is one I'd really like to get "fixed":
  1. Drop the picture/avatar
  2. Make e-mail full-width again (not indented for the avatar)
  3. Return to the use of color-coded names
  4. Return clear visual clues to separate the messages (boxes, thick dividers, whatever).
And I could probably even learn to tolerate 1 and 2 (the pic/avatars are pretty small now), if 3 and 4 were well addressed.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/13/12 9:56 PM
Wow, that was fast.  Yes, I made a mistake.  There is one more area still worth exploring, other than trying for the changes asked for as the reason for this latest post-forced change thread. 
 
That is to make a clear statement that the Google G'xecutives that wrote and talked about the email product should be faster than fast for the user to use have now changed their minds.
 
The new UI is NOT faster than fast.  It's not near as fast as the older UI was and it has not one thing to do with familarization with the interface.  I only note that here because of the message I just received to not forget that area of study some of us have gotten into.  Actually, others are more involved in that than I.  I have been given other responsibilities.  We all have our part to play.
 
But the issue of speed is also important.  And it's true I should not have forgotten that.  My apologies.  And thank you for pointing out my error.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/13/12 9:58 PM
I think I could agree with you, bkc46.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/13/12 10:03 PM
But the issue of speed is also important.

I agree, but I actually haven't noticed any performance hit with the new look in Gmail.  And it's not because I use state-of-the-art computers as everything I use is multiple years old and win-xp based.

Now the new forums are a TOTALLY different story in terms of how much they have slowed me down.  But that would be a different thread.   :-)
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/13/12 10:21 PM
Just so we are clear, we're not referring to processes speed.  We are referring to the human speed.  In fact, you may remember this came up a year or so ago with the new way to log out of an account.  Well, the speed issue remained on some folks' radar and some smart folks started testing the old UI before it was tossed into the trash and are now comparing those results with the new UI and the numbers are kind of surprising.  It seems that navigating around the new UI takes longer, no matter how good you become at doing it.
 
But I have jumped the gun, so to speak.  That is supposed to be published in another place and I'm going to get in a bit of trouble for going into so much detail here.  Still, I thought you should know we aren't talking about the actual system.  Just the human. 
 
Oh yes. we also decided to break it done into age groups, because there's no doubt some of the younger folks are faster than folks like me that have lost a bit in the speed department over the years.  Some of thses younger folks are bright as heck.  They think of everything.  
M.I.H. 5/13/12 11:19 PM <This message has been deleted.>
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/13/12 11:22 PM
Just so we are clear, we're not referring to processes speed.  We are referring to the human speed.

Got it.  Usability as it relates to the time required to complete specific tasks.

I can't say if the new-look for Gmail has slowed me down any in that aspect.  If it has, it's below my radar (not noticed).

There are things that increased the mental processing time (if you will).  I'm more verbally oriented (less pictorial) so the icons on the buttons caused me to think more about which button to click.  But Google fixed that one.

The context sensitive buttons also bothers me.  Yes, they always appear in the same place when they are active, but that movement again causes me some extra mental cpu cycles to deal with.  Not something I think you could analytically measure, but I "feel" it.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/14/12 5:28 AM
I am not sure if this is an appropriate place for this, but as it occurred in gmail, I thought I would bring it up.  When I went to "report a bug" this morning, (important information got trimmed again) I couldn't do it properly.  I had a bunch of messages open in the conversation, and when I clicked on "report a bug" the screen automatically jumped to the top of the conversation.  Since the bug was at the bottom of the page, I could not highlight it.

One may safely assume that when a person clicks on "report a bug" they are looking at the problem in question.  Therefore the screen that is reported should be in the exact position that it was when the report was triggered.

So, I reported that bug instead.

John

XP Pro, Firefox, ABP. Etc.


Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/14/12 9:03 AM
Since the bug was at the bottom of the page, I could not highlight it.

Could you "Collapse all" (the icon in the upper/right) all the messages in the conversation, open just the ONE you want to highlight, and have that fit on the reporting form?
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance GMail is GFail 5/14/12 9:29 AM
This touches on a point that bothers me about the new format of the conversation view.  To me, it looks too much like chat, or wave (or I suppose G+).  E-mail is not chat.  The reverse is also true.  I want my conversation view to look like e-mail (and at the risk of being myopic) the way it used to; not like chat.

Well, that would also explain Google's incredibly frustrating refusal to turn off the signature trimming "feature" - they want it to look more like chat. Ridiculously arrogant. Google has jumped the shark.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/14/12 9:36 AM
Well, that would also explain Google's incredibly frustrating refusal to turn off the signature trimming "feature"

Actually, it doesn't as trimming is a totally different subject.  It seems to work fine for me, but I recognize that it's way to aggressive for some people hiding legitimate content.  But there are already some threads about trimming, so it may not be useful to side-track this discussion with that topic.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/14/12 9:43 AM
bkc56
In my case, yes I could (and I did) but if the error had anything to do with expansion problems in longer conversations (for example) there would be no way to accurately report.

If a bug report is going to include a screen-shot, then the shot must be of the screen as it was when the report was initiated, not of the top of the screen.

John
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance GMail is GFail 5/14/12 9:52 AM
Actually, it doesn't as trimming is a totally different subject.  

I'm not so sure. I was confused why Google seems to be so insistent on the signature trimming "feature" being on by default without the ability to disable it - but if it's part of a goal to make email conversations LOOK more like chat or Google+, it makes a LOT more sense. The same reason they won't make the profile pics optional - it's all part of the overall look.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/14/12 10:10 AM
If a bug report is going to include a screen-shot, then the shot must be of the screen as it was when the report was initiated, not of the top of the screen.

Then it's good you submitted that one also.   :-)
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Sarah 5/14/12 11:48 AM
Hey jvanroekel, "Report a bug" should open scrolled to the top, but then within the "Report a bug" window you should be able to scroll down again. Could you try and let me know?
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/14/12 12:19 PM
Sarah:
Regrettably, no dice.
Just to double-check, I did it with Firefox (fully current) then with IE 8.0 (current) then with Firefox with ABP turned off (I'm at work, so I don't mess with the machine too much. . .)

With IE there was no scroll at-all once the screen greyed out, with Firefox (with or without ABP) there was less than 1/4" of scroll, or about 3/4 of the top black bar.  But that felt more like window sizing than real scrolling.

Best:
John
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/14/12 12:35 PM
Sarah, what you are describing is how it works in + (I was curious, I checked)

As a follow-up, I opened gmail up in two windows, both with a bunch of open messages (from this forum) and then went to report a bug in one of them.

Take a look at the scroll-bars on the right.

Before the bug report, they both had the same amount of "Slack" in them.

Best:
John

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance amnucc 5/14/12 9:20 PM
@ C Man - Reading the article the salient marketing point is that:

"Coke spent a considerable amount of time trying to figure out where it had made a mistake, ultimately concluding that it had underestimated the public impact of the portion of the customer base that would be alienated by the switch."

After introduction in 1985, New Coke lasted only 77 days before Classic Coke was re-introduced.  New Coke was re-named Coke II 1990 and production was discontinued in 2002.  Hardly a marketing success, at least Coke had the sense to listen to its customers--Google would do well to follow the example and restore the "Classic Gmail".  It has already been more than 77 days.

The supposed  "better flavour" was the result the flawed nature of taste tests and systemic test biases.  There undoubtedly are many parallels to between Coke's taste tests and Google's UI tests.  Reading the forums for the last few weeks, it is blatantly obvious that Google doesn't care that they are alienating their customers. 

Unlike Coke which is a luxury, e-mail today is a necessary  tool.  I should not have to waste hours searching the web to restore the basic functionality that Google eliminated with this "alleged" upgrade.   As a Gmail user since 2005 I'm offended at the arrogance that Google has shown over this issue.  I now read most of my e-mail via Thunderbird and run bing for searches.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Fuzzy 5/14/12 11:08 PM
I'd like to ask a simple question:

What functionality was lost in the new look?
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Fuzzy 5/14/12 11:29 PM
For what it's worth, I'm not trying to provoke you. Someone marked the thread where you asked me as a duplicate, so I'm replying here.

I've been reading everything that people are posting. So far, the vast majority of the complaints are of the form "I don't like the new look".

Since you clearly have an example, please share. What functionality was lost? (besides the removal of some less-used Labs)
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/15/12 1:23 AM
I suppose we are allowed to ask about possible bugs here, yes?
 
Possible, because I'd like to know if anyone else has a problem like I see.
 
I click on "Why this ad" and the text is just about impossible to read because the window is translucent and so the text behind/underneath is also showing.
 
Anybody else seeing that?
 
And please forgive me if this "bug" has already been written about.  If it has, maybe the link to where would be nice and I can keep track of what's being done about it.
 
Thank you.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/15/12 2:02 AM
You did not read the real facts. The flavour was better liked by the vast majority but a very vocal minority used nearly every publicity stunt possible managed to beat Coke down. The marketing policy was wrong as both versions should have been allowed to run side by side and then the lesser one would have been dropped. Coke did get one thing wrong.- they loaded the new variety with sugars and it would have been dropped now for health reasons.

Google did not make the same mistake - both were allowed to run side by side until natural degradation of the old version's user base faded away.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/15/12 2:04 AM
I don't believe that's a provocation.  I too would like to know the answer.  You keep saying that functionality has been lost, but I haven't found anything missing.  If you think this is provocation, I apologise.  I really would like to know what you haven't found yet.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/15/12 2:06 AM
On Tuesday, 15 May 2012 18:23:58 UTC+10, M.I.H. wrote:
I click on "Why this ad" and the text is just about impossible to read because the window is translucent and so the text behind/underneath is also showing.
Anybody else seeing that?

In my Gmail, the box is totally opaque.  Which browser (name and version) are you using?  Which theme?
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/15/12 2:09 AM
On Tuesday, 8 May 2012 05:17:47 UTC+10, ppcrn wrote:
Fixing the stupid "Sent items" box would be phenomenal....I cant stand that sent items are all clumped in one folder and cannot be truly "moved" to any folder of my choice. The only other email client that I have seen that in in Lotus Notes, which is as obsolete as can be.

This is nothing to do with the new look - it has always been this way.  The Sent items folder is just a search for all sent messages in the same way that All mail is all messages.  If you don't like it, ignore it - you can even hide it from the menu.  If you want a method to manage recently sent messages to assist in labelling, I can give you one.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Notes+ 5/15/12 2:22 AM
Hi Kieth, can you ask sarah to wear that red hat again please.

Thanks mate!

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/15/12 5:56 AM
Notes+,

Having compared Sarah to somebody who committed mass genocide I don't think you have the right to ask anybody to do anything.

https://groups.google.com/a/googleproductforums.com/forum/#!category-topic/gmail/yVIBfiTxEuc
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/15/12 6:18 AM
Sorry Notes+ you loose the discussion.
Godwin's law and all that.
Better luck next time.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Fuzzy 5/15/12 8:21 AM
danpr987, I'm done trying to help you. As far as I can tell, you just want a reaction from me, so my reaction will be to ignore your angry ranting from now on. Hopefully you get the help you need from someone else.
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/15/12 8:59 AM
Godwin's law and all that.

Nice.  I wasn't aware of that observation.  Learn something new every day.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance amnucc 5/15/12 9:52 AM
@ Fuzzy

Specifically the following all make Gmail less functional in it's primary purpose--READING MAIL and responding:

  • Floating buttons/icons draw your eyes away from the message pane--it's instinctual, we are hard wired to notice changes in our environment as a matter of survival.  It may only be for a fraction of a second, but it is distracting.
  • Over large buttons and top margins that take space from the message pane
  • "Select All" box that is out of line with the individual message click boxes--visual disconnect
  • Including pictures in message header wastes space, makes the headers too large and takes away from the amount of information available in the actual message pane.  The new format takes 4-5 lines of a message away.
  • Too little border between the message pane and the left column, the effect is stark and causes me eyestrain.  Yes I took several hours playing with density and different themes.  Nothing makes it better, just less awful.
  • No border between the right column and the message pane makes it more difficult to concentrate on message contents.
  • Loss of the next post flag that indicates there are more messages in a conversation thread.  Now the scroll bar is the only indication that there is any information below the bottom of the screen.  There is NO way to know if I am reading one incredibly long post or one of a series of posts.  I have missed follow-up posts due to this.
  • Hiding the primary functions (Gmail/Contacts/Tasks) in a drop-down menu inefficient and counter-intuitive.

All the above functional issues are enough to send the UI designers to bed without supper.  

Email is a tool.  Google has taken a very efficient and elegantly simple tool and made it less useful and more difficult to use.  At least Coke had the good sense to recognize and admit they made a mistake.  Google is still firmly in denial--we users are the problem, not the barren and sterile UI.  Not the right answer from a company that used to live the motto "Don't be Evil"


Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance novelideas 5/15/12 10:03 AM
One other bit is that having now-you-see-them-now-you-don't scrollbars (such as are within the help section and forum) are visually irritating.  For a "clean and modern" interface there are too many shifting, moving parts (IMHO) which require adjustments (slight and otherwise) to complete tasks.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/15/12 10:14 AM
Not to mention the intrusive signature trimming which adds a conscious decision-point with additional click to simply read an email as it was sent. 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/15/12 10:16 AM
And more moving parts means more things can break.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/15/12 10:37 AM
And, while you may file it under "aesthetic" the old gmail had a custom theme that allowed you to to change almost any aspect of the appearance.  There is not even discussion of bringing back that level of function.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Fuzzy 5/15/12 12:01 PM
I understand your concerns. This is exactly the kind of feedback that is appreciated.

Please also fill in the form that Doree suggested too:

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Fuzzy 5/15/12 12:02 PM
Not that I have any advance knowledge, but I think they will make the appearance more configurable over time.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Fuzzy 5/15/12 12:02 PM
This is a pet peeve of mine as well.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance mareiq 5/15/12 12:04 PM
I have to complement the list of shortcomings that reduce productivity a new look ...
than ''
my nervous excitement 
of the design'', also NO arrows for review and passage next draft.



Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance GMail is GFail 5/15/12 12:41 PM

The marketing policy was wrong as both versions should have been allowed to run side by side and then the lesser one would have been dropped.

It was sold until 2002. It was a miserable failure. To say anything else is an attempt to rewrite history.


Google did not make the same mistake - both were allowed to run side by side until natural degradation of the old version's user base faded away.

Faded away? Really? More like forced onto the new look, with most people having no clue they could switch back to the old version. And then considering how popular the bookmarklet to revert back to the older superior look after the official end date... yeah, I'd say your vision of a faded away user base is fantasy.



Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance novelideas 5/15/12 12:55 PM
And another thing...the fact that one can no longer move to the next page of emails from the bottom of the page.  Inefficient design to scroll to the bottom and then have to scroll back to the top.  Nor can one archive (or anything else) at the bottom of the page.  Again, wasted movement.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Fuzzy 5/15/12 1:07 PM
The header stays put at the top of the screen when you scroll down... it shouldn't scroll off the screen.

Or, you could use the keyboard shortcuts as well.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance novelideas 5/15/12 1:33 PM
It scrolls off the screen.  I know it SHOULD stay put, but it doesn't.  Mouse=one click - keyboard shortcut=two clicks...which is more efficient?
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance amnucc 5/15/12 2:03 PM
@ C Man 
Please re-read the "Taste Test Issues" section.  Specifically: 

Tests such as the Pepsi Challenge were what are called in the industry "sip tests", meaning that drinkers were given small samples (less than a can or bottle's worth) to try out. Gladwell contends that what people say they like in these tests may not reflect what they will actually buy to sit at home and drink over a week or so
As a corollary, I had been repeatedly forced to "sip test" the new Gmail numerous times and found it inferior.  Each time I opted back to the old look I completed the survey and stated I strongly preferred the old version.  Since Google forced the new format on me I can only say I sadly underestimated its inferiority.  My initial impressions were based primarily sheer ugliness of the new look.  After being forced to use this mess for a month I am astounded that so much time and effort was expended on a product that makes reading my e-mail more difficult.

To my list of functionality losses above others have added:
  • No longer able to move to the next page of emails from the bottom of the page.  Inefficient design to scroll to the bottom and then have to scroll back to the top.  Nor can one archive (or anything else) at the bottom of the page.  Again, wasted movement.
  • No longer able to move from one one draft to the next without going back to the Draft box.  More wasted movement.
  • Now-you-see-them-now-you-don't scroll bars (such as are within the help section and forum) are visually irritating.

All things that make reading and responding to mail less efficient.


Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance novelideas 5/15/12 2:41 PM
Since the default settings are gray, it makes for difficulty reading.  Before the "new-and-improved" introduction, gmail was immediately ready with easy-to-read information without any changes.  The new version requires many, many changes (and third-party downloads???) to make it as functional and elegant as the interface it replaced.  Is that efficient?  As someone who uses labels frequently, it is a pain to have to switch each and every label to a simple green on white...since the default is grey on gray.  While it is easy to change to my default, the fact that I must change each and every label is inefficient.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/15/12 3:12 PM
But all of these are "form" not "function", except for this one..,


On Wednesday, 16 May 2012 02:52:37 UTC+10, amnucc wrote:
Specifically the following all make Gmail less functional in it's primary purpose--READING MAIL and responding:
  • Loss of the next post flag that indicates there are more messages in a conversation thread.  Now the scroll bar is the only indication that there is any information below the bottom of the screen.  There is NO way to know if I am reading one incredibly long post or one of a series of posts.  I have missed follow-up posts due to this.
I don't recall anything that I would describe as a "next post flag" in a conversation.  Can you describe this differently?  The top of every new message in a conversation has a reply button at the top right and the avatar (that you have already mentioned) at the top left.  I don't see how a follow-up post could be missed.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/15/12 3:16 PM
On Wednesday, 16 May 2012 05:41:17 UTC+10, GMail is GFail wrote:

Google did not make the same mistake - both were allowed to run side by side until natural degradation of the old version's user base faded away.

Faded away? Really? More like forced onto the new look, with most people having no clue they could switch back to the old version. And then considering how popular the bookmarklet to revert back to the older superior look after the official end date... yeah, I'd say your vision of a faded away user base is fantasy.

But how popular was the bookmarklet really?  Don't forget that a few hundred thousand users is still less than 0.1 % of the user base.  Google knows who used what - they have the web statistics to read.  You might think they're evil because they upset you, but they're not stupid.  They know how to run a corporation. 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/15/12 3:28 PM
Loss of the next post flag that indicates there are more messages in a conversation thread.

I suspect this refers to the small colored box (with a name in it) that would show up in the lower/right corner indicating there are more messages below where you are currently viewing.

I miss this feature also.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/15/12 4:44 PM
Ah, yes.  Now I remember that - OK, admit that's a loss of function.  Something I didn't use so I had forgotten it. 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance MAREIA 5/15/12 6:16 PM
GMail е GFail , YES! Gmail Fail,  It is an undeniable fact 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance amnucc 5/15/12 6:22 PM
@ KiethR bkc56 is correct--I don't know if "next post flag" is the correct terminology.  I can post a screen cap if you would like.  I frequently receive mail threads/conversations with many contributors and this was a very handy feature. 

As to your form and function comment.  By my definition, the FUNCTION of Gmail is reading and responding to e-mail.  Changes in Gmail that make that task more difficult are in my mind a loss of function.  Needing to take 2 or 3 mouse clicks to do the same job as before is a loss of function--my tool is less useful.  So yes, hiding top-line menu options under a drop-down menu is a loss of function.  As is scrolling down to the bottom of a page of messages and having to move the mouse to the top of the page to use the next message arrow.  Each extra action may only take a miniscule fraction of a second, but Google's design changes have made me less efficient.

The bottom line is that my substantially default Gmail was a useful tool.  The default mode "new" Gmail is a migraine inducing eyesore.  If there had been some added functionality, the eyestrain might be worth enduring.  Instead, Google has added insult to injury by making Gmail more cumbersome to use.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/15/12 6:39 PM
On Wednesday, 16 May 2012 11:16:52 UTC+10, MAREIA wrote:
GMail е GFail , YES! Gmail Fail,  It is an undeniable fact 
That is definitely untrue - that is neither fact nor undeniable.  It is only the belief of some users.  While I have a slight preference for some of the form of the old look, I am finding the new look quite workable, therefore for me (and probably over 300,000,000 other users) it is not a FAIL.  You will achieve more if you post factual statements about the particular features that trouble you as was done by @amnucc above.  There could well be changes you can make that surprise you.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/15/12 6:45 PM
On Wednesday, 16 May 2012 11:22:10 UTC+10, amnucc wrote:
@ KiethR bkc56 is correct--I don't know if "next post flag" is the correct terminology.  I can post a screen cap if you would like.  I frequently receive mail threads/conversations with many contributors and this was a very handy feature. 

That's OK - the description by @bkc56 identified the signal to me as I mentioned above.

As to form versus function, I would disagree, but only on semantics.  Agreed that there are some features whose new form affects speed of use and the next message arrow is one of the worst of those.  I support the suggestion by @bkc56 to use keyboard shortcuts - you would be surprised how fast you can move through certain tasks by using "j" to got to the next message (or "k" to previous) and leaving the mouse poised in the right place to take action on each one.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/15/12 9:36 PM
I am using IE8 and the default theme at "Compact" density.  See the screen shot, please.
 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/15/12 9:42 PM
Okay, I may be incorrect in stating "default theme".  I see it is called "Light" but I assumed it was the default.  I don't recall changing the theme in this account.
 
But the screen shot makes it very clear (unclear?) what I am seeing.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/15/12 9:48 PM

+=--=+ Ist Quote +=--=+


Don't forget that a few hundred thousand users is still less than 0.1 % of the user base.

+=--=+ 2nd Quote +=--=+


I am finding the new look quite workable, therefore for me (and probably over 300,000,000 other users) it is not a FAIL.

( ( ( ( ( So what do those quotes mean, in the overall picture? ) ) ) ) )

I am probably wrong, but the two quotes above might give some Community members —— especially first-time members or guests —— might give them the idea that the TC corps here are indicating that the minority should bow to the view of the majority and that the voices of the minority are not welcome here in this Community.  Sort of seems like the idea is, "Shut up, already!"

In fact, I thought I saw something about just posting specifics and cut with the general viewpoint of, "Heh, I just don't like what I'm seeing." which would be another attempt at offering up unapproved-by-Google posting guidelines from the TC corps to the members of this Community. 

Something like, "We don't like you to post that kind of viewpoint, because you are in the minority and we don't want to hear from the minority."  Again, I'm probably wrong, but I also don't think it's a big jump to that reaction from first-time readers of what the TC corps posts here.

Kind of seems like the idea that if you don't have anything nice to post about the new UI you just stay away, okay? 

Maybe it's just any general comments about the look and feel of the new UI are very unwelcome here?

Wait, that wouldn't make sense, would it?  If that were the case then we'd see TCs complaining when members post adulatory comments? 

Anyway, I am probably quite wrong and anyone is free to post whatever they wish as long as it doesn't violate the written guidelines.  And whatever the member writes he or she need not worry that some TC will come out of the woodwork/server wall and start reminding the member about how many millions of other users love this new UI so why don't you shut your face, okay!?

Nope, all is just peaches and cream here!  We are all one big happy Community and there is no ...

Uh oh, gotta go.  My time to get on the couch.  Previous patient is leaving the doctor's office.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/15/12 10:08 PM
...might give them the idea that the TC corps here are indicating that the minority should bow to the view of the majority and that the voices of the minority are not welcome here in this Community.

Now one might claim I am biased, but I don't read those quotes in that way at all.  I interpret those remarks as a counter argument to such claims as "everyone hates the new look" or "99% of user want the old look back" or similar statements.  While it's clear there are a number of people that would prefer the old look, and an smaller number that really truly hate the new look, it's obviously not "everyone".

People are absolutely free to post their opinions, pro or con, as long as they follow the posting guidelines.  But we also need to keep things in perspective.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/15/12 10:21 PM
Well, I did think I might be wrong.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/15/12 10:26 PM
As for this idea:
 
"But we also need to keep things in perspective."
 
It sure would be nice if we could see some actual data. 
 
I seem to recall in that place called Usa there is a state that has a nickname of something like the "The show me state."  I'm kind of thinking that some of them folks would be writing the same thing, if they knew this place even existed.
 
Where's the data?  Why do we keep reading about this fantastic majority, but nobody wants to actually show us from whence that notion comes?
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/15/12 10:39 PM
It sure would be nice if we could see some actual data.

I agree.  I'd love to see some actual numbers.

Unfortunately that's Google proprietary data and it's their choice to share some/all/none of it, and thus far their choice is none.

Doesn't stop me from being very curious though.  Just a few of the percentages I'd like to see:
  • What percentage of users voluntarily tried the new look when it was first release.
  • What percentage then switched back.
  • What percentage of users switched back when the forced conversions happened.
  • What percentage of users were still on the old look when the option was removed.
  • What percentage of users were still on the old look (using the hack) when the code was actually removed.
I doubt we'll see any of those numbers, but I'd LIKE to.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/15/12 10:53 PM
WOW!  Now that is a lovely wish list and I'll bet that's the first time y'all have seen me use that word, 'lovely".  'Tis not a word I much like to use.  But that list up there is an exception.  That list almost makes me drool.  Bad for the keyboard, though.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/16/12 12:40 AM
On Wednesday, 16 May 2012 15:26:02 UTC+10, M.I.H. wrote:
Where's the data?  Why do we keep reading about this fantastic majority, but nobody wants to actually show us from whence that notion comes?

Now that is truly hilarious coming from someone who is willing to accuse TCs of abuse but refuses to present the evidence.  ROFLMAO. 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/16/12 12:44 AM
Edit: this is in reply to @M.I.H. with the see-through pop up.
Have you tried the IE8 compatibility view fix?  Here is the recipe worked out by @wdurham:
Turn off Compatibility View and prevent Microsoft from turning it back on again next time you go to GMail - do that like this:
1. If you use IE9, first press the Alt key to toggle the main menu bar on.
2. In IE8 or IE9, then click Tools and choose Compatibility View Settings
3. If you see google.com in the big text box (you probably won't as this is an automated Microsoft "feature") click on it and click Remove.
4. Then uncheck the three checkboxes under the text box - this is very important, or Microsoft will just switch CV back on again next time you start IE.
5. Restart IE.
And before you say "It doesn't work because I am NOT in CV!", please read the thread linked below and then do it again, this time following every step.
https://groups.google.com/a/googleproductforums.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/6EfPjLeh7zQ 

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/16/12 12:55 AM
If you are intent on bringing that to the front rows, again, I'll make you a deal.
 
You start the thread and we'll present the evidence.
 
And we will start with evidence already provided and then we will present new evidence.
 
And the pronoun "we" is significant.  This time there will be no locking the thread to stop the evidence from being displayed.  There will be no bringing in of TCs from other Help Forums to taunt us.  Note the plural pronoun "us".
 
There will be no bringing in members to also assist the TCs to taunt the "us".
 
And, most importantly, there will be no more of that unbelievable BS that the TC is just like any other member and so all abusive posts must be included in the evidence.
 
Now it was a TC that decided to reignite this flame, not I. Not us.
 
So what are you TCs going to do?  Hide?  Or stand up to the scrutiny?
 
Go start the thread.  We'll be there soon enough.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/16/12 1:30 AM
CV has been turned off since the forced change and those three check boxes have been unchecked during that time.  In fact, just checked a few seconds ago to be sure and all is as it should be -- off.
 
But thank you for posting that idea. 
 
I don't think I've seen that same problem that was the reason for the OP starting that thread.
This message has been hidden because it was flagged for abuse.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/16/12 4:51 AM
danpr,

Please check the subject of this thread. If you wish to put forward ideas that might improve what we have now "Great" but just criticism for the sake of criticism is hijacking the thread.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance novelideas 5/16/12 8:16 AM
Another stat I think would be interesting:  What percentage of users are using the new interface in an unmodified form?

I am a long-time gmail user, first-time forum user.  I never realized how large the black hole is where feedback lands.  In reading the forums there have been issues with the new interface for over a year...the same issues we are dealing with now (too bright, not enough contrast, unable to differentiate read and unread emails, etc.) I think the fact that people are STILL having issues with the new interface (and are willing the expend greats blocks of time to try to find solutions) should weight any statistics that Google is collecting.

Also, is this interface change related to the disastrous effects from the release of Google Penguin...three weeks ago or so???

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/16/12 8:43 AM
Did you notice that the statement implies that it's only SOMEWHAT worse than the previous version of Gmail?

For my part, I've never said I like the new look better than the old.  I have been completely up-front about aspects that I think were not done correctly and need to be changed.  There are multiple threads where I have set it all out for everyone to read.

That said, I'm also not going to waste my time complaining about something I can't change.  The new look is here to stay (until the next time Google changes it) and my focus is on making it better - moving forwards, not trying to move backwards.

Finally, I don't believe the new look is THAT bad (not to the degree that some people do).  For me, it's perfectly usable, but there are some key areas where it could be made a lot better.  That's where my focus is.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/16/12 3:15 PM
On Thursday, 17 May 2012 01:16:09 UTC+10, novelideas wrote:

In reading the forums there have been issues with the new interface for over a year...

That's truly amazing - since it has been released for less than six months!
 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Notes+ 5/16/12 3:36 PM
Hi kieth, can you fix the problems please?

Cheers.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance amol.c.khedkar 5/16/12 3:41 PM
@danpr87, I note your frustration with TCs who have a condescending attitude towards the "regular joe" posters. I couldn't agree more. If I may be so bold, may I suggest you simply ignore such TCs?

In the past, I've brought such TCs to Sarah's attention. Unfortunately, nothing is apparently done about it, which in turn means Google implicitly condones such behavior when it comes from TCs.

Only my $0.02......

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance arentsc1 5/16/12 8:30 PM
 i have about nine complaints about the new UI that i have listed all over these forums with no response.  since it looks like this thread is actually somewhat productive, i'll just list one in here and see if we can get traction:

the loss of the stacked notecard, color alternating messages with rounded corners in the new UI is an absolutely huge setback.  this part of the old look was what made gmail so far superior to every other email service.  and now it's gone.

can we please bring that back?  or if it's gone for good, what is the rationale for making the new product worse than the old one?
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/16/12 8:53 PM
@arentsc1, we would all like that back.  Did you use the Send feedback link in Gmail to record that (while it was available)?
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/16/12 8:57 PM
Amol, Sarah doesn't require her TCs to be more than human.  We are allowed to express our feelings towards people who are being disruptive and rude for no particular purpose - provided we are not abusive.  If a TC loses his/her temper and is abusive, they will get a warning and repeated offences would cause expulsion form the team.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/16/12 8:59 PM
I'm sure you know that I can't fix a thing.  Google won't let a non-employee tamper with their code.  Besides, you haven't mentioned which problem(s).
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/16/12 9:26 PM
Anybody else have any ideas about this problem I posted about starting a few posts up?  There's a screen shot, too.
 
You wouldn't want people to start thinking it is an intentional bug, right?  Look at what that should be explaining.  Must have been a good reason for putting that "Why this ad?" there in the first place.  But now some folks can't read what it is supposed to explain.
 
Silly me.  Of course, that's not intentional.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Somnath. 5/16/12 10:45 PM
arentsc1,

There are many who would love to see the color alternating names make a comeback. We remember its efficacy in the retired look and we still see it here in the forum. The current colors in the blank avatars are not bright or large enough to attract attention and serve any valid purpose. 

As for the trouble one faces with the missing side borders (and with it, the supposed blending of ads with messages), I can suggest you to a user style that applies it. If you are comfortable using it, you can check out the one titled Gmail messages, rounded and compressed

We know that one of the main reason for this change is to implement the consistent look and feel across all Google products and services, and in my opinion, Gmail was over-tweaked originally to leave it with several key features missing.

With my best wishes,
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/17/12 12:42 AM
On Thursday, 17 May 2012 14:26:31 UTC+10, M.I.H. wrote:
Anybody else have any ideas about this problem I posted about starting a few posts up?  There's a screen shot, too.
 
You wouldn't want people to start thinking it is an intentional bug, right?  Look at what that should be explaining.  Must have been a good reason for putting that "Why this ad?" there in the first place.  But now some folks can't read what it is supposed to explain.

Have you posted this question anywhere else?   If you would be so kind as to make a separate question of it, that would be a lot easier to escalate to get more information.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance romeolima 5/17/12 3:13 AM
Hi C Man, I've been busy and haven't had a chance to read this thread recently. Despite your run in with me, I see you are still tormenting fellow posters. Is this Google policy or is it just you ? You are changing the topic and trying to goad the questioner. Do behave.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance romeolima 5/17/12 3:35 AM
Hi Keith, Business as usual then. So you are ROFLMAO. If I'd posted that as words not initials, I suspect one of you guys would have reported me for abuse. I think I may have the answer as to why average joe posters find the TC's offensive. You are all very skilled in IT, some of you are actually programmers and engineers and you know how to make this new look work for you. However, none of you show the slightest sign of having been taught how to teach. Imparting the information you have and sharing your skills is an art form and the questions TC's are asking of posters are almost always couched in terms that infer the questioner is an idiot, didn't understand the first answer or doesn't really want an answer and is just a troublemaker. Don't ask me to trawl through the thousands of posts and attach examples. Those TC's who do this KNOW you do this and you can check your own posts. 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/17/12 3:55 AM
I was thinking about that idea.  Your endorsement means I best get to it.  Thank you.  Got to finish some work on another computer first, so won't be right away.  Hope it'll be soon.  My eyes are getting tired.  I hate reading code!
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/17/12 4:36 AM
By the way, Sarah, it would be very nice if the tech folks could please fix the subscription feed.  It keeps breaking.  And this has been reported before this post.  Thank you.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance arentsc1 5/17/12 5:52 AM
I most certainly did.  No response from anyone.

To me, this was the essential thing that made gmail so much better than anyone else.  I think it was revolutionary, and many other providers have tried unsuccessfully to mimic it.  Taking it out turns gmail into any other email provider. 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/17/12 6:40 AM
Out of curiosity, have we had any confirmation or feedback regarding the lack of scrolling in the gmail "report a bug" function?

This appears to be the case on any computer I have logged into, but I would be interested if this is a genuine bug in need of fixing.

Thanks:
John
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance amol.c.khedkar 5/17/12 7:38 AM
@KeithR, I completely agree about TCs being human. However, there are those whose posts reveal a pattern of superciliousness and condescending attitude towards regular posters. There are also attempts to goad posters into losing their tempers. I am hardly along in noticing that. IMHO, those TCs ought to have been kicked out of here a long time ago. At the very least, they should have been relieved of that vaunted TC status.

Failure to take action against such repeated behavior indicates implicit acceptance of such behavior when it comes from a TC and it also creates a poor impression of TCs in general.

Whether or not you agree with this, I've seen quite a few posts here and on  other threads expressing pretty much the same sentiments.

Cheer!

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance amol.c.khedkar 5/17/12 8:03 AM
@bkc, LOL. I'd like to see those numbers as well and I'm quite sure we won't. Why? Because massive egos are on the line here, not to mention those who will be desperately trying to save their own reputation. It takes real courage to admit a mistake. Based on user feedback I've seen here and elsewhere, the new GMail look has been a massive failure. Reminds me of the Netflix debacle not too long ago. Of course, Reed Hastings (Netflix CEO) had the guts to admit the mistake and rectify it. Does anyone at Google have that courage? Doesn't look like it so far.

I notice that the buttons now have a text or icon option. Whoever promoted the "icons only" idea originally, now knows it was a resounding failure. Alex Gawley tried to defend the "icons only" approach initially in his posts here. I'd love to hear what he has to say now on the matter. Haven't seen him around lately, though.

Back when MS came up with that Ribbon idea (which I still consider one of the dumbest ideas to come out of MS), the chap who led the UI design team there, proclaimed the Ribbon to be a massive success on his blog. His name has slipped my mind. Along with several others, I asked very specific questions, seeking similar data. The response: the chap stopped posting on his blog altogether. The fact is, absent the "captive users" (those who have to use Office 2007 and later at work and don't have a choice), I don't believe the Ribbon would have survived. Several folks working for smaller companies/businesses reported moving back to Office 2003 and then replacing MS altogether with another product, such as OpenOffice. I consider the Ribbon to be a desperate attempt by MS to differentiate themselves from other competitors like Google, OpenOffice, Zoho, etc.

With the Ribbon, MS nixed the knowledge investment thousands of users had made over a period of many years. To a much smaller extent, the GMail team has done that to their long time, loyal users. In that light, it was amusing to read the blog entry about encouraging one's friends/family/acquaintances to "Go Google". Whoever wrote that bit, is either the world's biggest optimist or lives on another planet.

Based on the user backlash, it is quite obvious that both MS & Google have serious flaws in the "User Experience" testing. Very obviously, the testers do not represent an accurate cross section of real life users.

I rather suspect that the features that users miss sorely will be added back slowly, until the new look resembles the classic look both in terms of look and functionality. That way, no one at Google has to admit to failure. However, if the powers that be at Google have any sense, they will replace the GMail UX designers in a tearing hurry.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Rob So Rob 5/17/12 8:34 AM
Since Google is no longer using the old Gmail platform, would it be possible to make the old code open sourced so that we can create our own front end to Gmail?

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Notes+ 5/17/12 8:57 AM
Amol - you have written two of the most accurate posts on here that I have seen. I do hope that the supercilious TC's and that the UX designers read your posts and consider your thoughts.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance amol.c.khedkar 5/17/12 9:09 AM
@Rob, that's a brilliant idea. However, I don't see that happening, lest that result in an email client that garners more popularity than the much vaunted new look that is "clean", "simple" and "beautiful". :-)

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/17/12 9:13 AM
However, none of you show the slightest sign of having been taught how to teach.

I don't believe that's true in the slightest.  Many TCs have created extensive articles about various aspects of Gmail:


Here's one (which I think is well done) specific to user-styles and the new look:


I myself have a half-dozen articles.  Of course I'm biased, but I put a lot of work into creating them to help users.  No one's complained about them, yet...   ;-)
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance romeolima 5/17/12 9:53 AM
Well Brett, I'll read them and let you know. It's not an innate skill that makes me able to explain complex things simply without losing the info. I was lucky enough to be very well taught and thought it might be an explanation of the perceived rudeness of TC's when in fact it's not what they intend at all. 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Notes+ 5/17/12 10:00 AM
Nicely written articles, now why can't some of the more abrasive TC's write in the same polite manner? Maybe its time for everyone to declare a truce and start again :-)
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance romeolima 5/17/12 10:03 AM
Bkc 56 The first link gave me : This content is no longer available on Knol. whatever that is.

However the second one is the system that Wendy Durham put me on to for changing the background colour of my read mail. It works. I will find an example of what I mean and see if I can make it clearer for ordinary users but not so dumbed down that IT buffs go cross eyed.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance romeolima 5/17/12 10:41 AM
Hi jvanroekel, I don't know if this is a suitable place to post this observation so if it's not, Sarah can move it. I wanted to share experience of the translate button which is accessed by clicking MORE on the black bar. Firstly, I love the idea and it's brilliant. However I'm a little perturbed that Can we meet at your house on the 30th May ? becomes Możemy spotkać się w swoim domu w dniu 30 maja ? in Polish but on translating back to English becomes, We meet at his home on 30 May ? If I'm using Translate, obviously I'm not fluent enough to write in the chosen language and neither my recipient nor I will know if this text says what I intend it to say. I have to write to a Romanian Government Department and although some of the re-translations are hilarious Chinese Whispers, which puzzles me in a machine which should translate exactly the same words in both directions, I'm not sure I should use it for business.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/17/12 10:57 AM
Bkc 56 The first link gave me : This content is no longer available on Knol. whatever that is.

Yes.  Google shut down Knol a while back which is where may of the articles were originally hosted. A few of the links on that page still point to Knol which no longer exists.  Until that page gets cleaned up, it's a bit hit-or-miss if a given link will have content.

Here are my two blogs:

http://gmailaccountrecovery.blogspot.com/  (specific to Gmail account recovery)
http://gmail-tips.blogspot.com/  (5 other articles)
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/17/12 11:08 AM
Hi romeolima.
I am actually a fan of google Translate (although I would probably not use it for business)

This not the best place for that.  However, there is a googe translate group, however you can't get to it through the normal route. 

You can either go to "About Google Translate" at the bottom of the page, and then scroll down to the bottom of the page and
find the link that says "
Google Translate discussion group"
Or, you can just go to the group Here:
https://groups.google.com/group/google-translate?hl=en&noredirect=true

Note that translate appears to be the only product that still uses the old forum.  It will be moving over to the new forum soon, but there is very little action there as of yet.

Admittedly, there is not much action in the old forum, but perhaps that is because the forums are so hard to find.

I hope that you are able to get help there.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance romeolima 5/17/12 11:13 AM
Thanks jvanroekel, In the interests of input, could you leave this post up and see what we get ?
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance romeolima 5/17/12 11:14 AM
bkc56, I'll read them. The following is an example of what I think could be the style for a series of links to which the user could be referred without the TC having to say the same thing over and over. Usually, I have the original writer leaning over my shoulder so this may contain errors but you get the idea ? I've incorporated text, icons and glossary.

To enable IMAP (Internet Message Access Protocol) or POP (Post Office Protocol) in Gmail:

  1. Sign in to Gmail.
  2. Click the gear icon  in the upper right of your screen, then select Settings.
  3. On the top line marked General, you should be able to see the option Forwarding and POP/IMAP. Click on it.
  4. Select Enable IMAP or POP
  5. Configure your IMAP/POP client (the system in your computer to access and manage the user's email) and click Save Changes.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/17/12 11:19 AM
I couldn't take it down if I wanted to : )
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/17/12 4:08 PM
On Friday, 18 May 2012 01:34:47 UTC+10, Rob So Rob wrote:
Since Google is no longer using the old Gmail platform, would it be possible to make the old code open sourced so that we can create our own front end to Gmail?

You don't need the code to be open sourced - get inventive and use the API: 

Gmail APIs - Google Developers

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/17/12 4:14 PM
@romeolima, what was your point in copying and pasting a section of the Gmail Help pages here?
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/17/12 4:20 PM
On Friday, 18 May 2012 03:41:04 UTC+10, romeolima wrote:
Hi jvanroekel, I don't know if this is a suitable place to post this observation so if it's not, Sarah can move it.
@romeolima, none of us can move individual posts (including Sarah), so please try to stay on topic.  Even if we could move them, it's a little inconsistent to roast us for not answering every post and then create even more work by expecting us to move your posts to "the right place".  For help on Google Translate, go to Google Translate Help
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/17/12 4:23 PM
On Friday, 18 May 2012 04:19:59 UTC+10, jvanroekel wrote:
I couldn't take it down if I wanted to : )

Of course, you can...have you not found the option yet?  See the drop down just to the right of the Post reply button. 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance romeolima 5/17/12 4:35 PM
Hi Keith, It's NOT the help page from Google : It's my re-write of it which I offer up for correction and comment.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance romeolima 5/17/12 4:57 PM
Wow Keith !!! Pour a drink, put your feet up and take some time off. I have seen posts from Sarah where she says 'I have moved this post to a more suitable thread' and I was being polite in deference to the Topic although I do regard Translate as being a function and I expect it to work consistently. I did not roast the TC's : I stated that no one from Google was monitoring the forum. Google Translate help is no longer functional. 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Notes+ 5/18/12 12:52 AM
That forum is much easier on the eyes.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Csani 5/18/12 2:01 AM
(I wanted to post this in the topic closed by Sarah)

I think most of us signing this petition do understand that Gmail (unfortunately) is currently unwilling to return the previous look.
That said, I still have not read any comment from Gmail on the suggestion to create a theme/appearance for this new look which resembles the previous one as closely as possible.

And if for the Gmail current "new" look "as closely as possible" means merely being able to have text instead of buttons and adjusting density: from our point of view that suggests that this new look is really not user-friendly and very non-flexible at the same. I believe that for such an email tool used world-wide being able to customize it as much as possible (and that being to a large degree) to everyone's needs is essential.

Thus, here is another official channel (thank you, Sarah) for Gmail feedback which we can and should use to echo/give our feedback at:

http://support.google.com/mail/bin/static.py?hl=en&page=suggestions.cs

Of course feel free to fill it out as you want to but here is how I did it:

Chose:
"I have another idea"
"Interface and settings"
"Appearance"
and wrote:

Create an appearance which resembles the previous Gmail interface as closely as possible.
Thank you.

Again, it is important for Gmail to understand that (probably) most of us are OK with bringing in new features and new look but it is important to have the option to choose a theme/appearance/look which resembles the previous one as much as possible (given the minimal constraints the new appearance might be having to block one or two features from the previous look).

Anyway, thank you for the petition topic, ablestmage, my friend. :)
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/18/12 5:03 AM
KeithR
I only have the options to:
"Link"
"Show Activity"
"Report Abuse"
No "Exile to another thread"
I am disappointed.  I was planning to become drunk on power.  Or perhaps, as it is too-early in the day yet to be drunk, corrupted by it.  They say that ultimate power corrupts ultimately, so surely pathetic levels of power would corrupt me pathetically* : )

Cheers!
John

*And Sarah; no saying that has already happened.  I know you just thought it ; )
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Rob So Rob 5/18/12 6:45 AM
I would need the code for the front end and then I could use those APIs to craft the link with the back end.  They'll never give it to me, never in a million years.  :(
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Fuzzy 5/18/12 7:26 AM
I don't have any pull to cause the old look to be available again, but the options available do have text on the buttons and the ability to control the whitespace. Just my thoughts.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance jvanroekel 5/18/12 11:00 AM
KeithR:
The ability to change the form is a a function, therefore the loss of the fully configurable custom theme, is a loss of function.

At the same time, if you have a function that you used to be able to accomplish quickly, that you can now only accomplish slowly, you may not have technically lost function but you have lost functionality.  While this may be semantically different, the loss of functionality is just as debilitating in many cases as a loss of function (more so in some cases) 

As one example; it used to be that if I wanted to read an email that had been sent to me I simply had to click on it from the in-box.  Now, that google is editing my personal correspondence without my permission, I have to click once to open it, and then a second time to undo the censorship.  This adds both an additional click, and an active decision point.  Functionality has been lost.

Now I could make a pedantic argument about the loss of the "function" of "one click to read" but honestly, it is just a loss of functionality.  Something that used to work quickly and well, now works slowly and with annoyance.  Many of the issues raised, are similar to this, and to dismiss them as "form" is unfortunate.  gmail's censoring the parts of my email that they consider unimportant are not "form" except perhaps that it is very bad "form" and should not be tolerated in polite society.

John

On Tuesday, May 15, 2012 6:12:03 PM UTC-4, KeithR wrote:
But all of these are "form" not "function", except for this one..,

On Wednesday, 16 May 2012 02:52:37 UTC+10, amnucc wrote:
Specifically the following all make Gmail less functional in it's primary purpose--READING MAIL and responding:
  • Loss of the next post flag that indicates there are more messages in a conversation thread.  Now the scroll bar is the only indication that there is any information below the bottom of the screen.  There is NO way to know if I am reading one incredibly long post or one of a series of posts.  I have missed follow-up posts due to this.
I don't recall anything that I would describe as a "next post flag" in a conversation.  Can you describe this differently?  The top of every new message in a conversation has a reply button at the top right and the avatar (that you have already mentioned) at the top left.  I don't see how a follow-up post could be missed.
This message has been hidden because it was flagged for abuse.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance mikle108 5/18/12 12:33 PM
Hi guys,

If you REALLY want to change bad new Gmail's look to (very) old good one, use this reference:
https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=html&zy=h

It will change your interface to html (the "original") one. The differences:

a) It does not support text formatting (coloring and, different size of fonts, etc.)

b) It has NO advertising!

Google keeps this interface for "unsupported" browsers and slow connections. Don't forget to make this interface the permanent one!
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Somnath. 5/18/12 1:11 PM
I'd be intrigued to know if the Google designers consider email an electronic form of the formal letter, or that of an informal conversation. A formal letter must contain and include a visible complimentary close and the signature. An informal note, on the other hand, need not bother itself with such specifics. 

It is my opinion, and I have expressed it in the previous threads that, emails be considered as a formal means of correspondence as Gtalk/Chat easily and adequately allows for quick, informal conversations. They are tools for two distinct styles of communication, and should be left as such.

With my best wishes,
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance romeolima 5/18/12 1:11 PM
Thank you John for defining a loss of functionality as opposed to total function. I did wonder if I was exceptionally stupid in being unable to feel comfortable with the ponderous additional commands I have to perform in order to get "New Look" to work for me as opposed to me working for it. I'm not using my computer to play games or build up a Facebook persona. No criticism of those who do use a computer in that way. It has to work for me easily and efficiently for what I do. I was quite startled the other day, when I was in an area of the West Country that has a very poor TV signal, and I tried to watch programmes that I need to see on my BBC iPlayer, 4oD, ITV Player and Sky Go. ALL  were corrupted and no longer useable on my computer. Sky were able to trace the corruption to a date in April that looks like the roll out of "New Look". I will re-set them but what a pain and how did that happen ?    
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/18/12 3:34 PM
There is also the problem I have had more than a few times that when I click on the button to get the rest of the message to show, most likely the signature, that the click was not quite right and I had to do it again.  I haven't had time to do any testing to see if I am just missing a small target, or there really is a bug.
 
Either way, it can be frustrating when one is busy. 
 
Let's say I am using two or more computers at this work station and one is being used to check mail and I somehow miss with that extra click, but I quickly looked at a program running on the other computer and then look back expecting to see the full email message and -- wait -- again!? -- uh oh -- click again and this time pay closer attention to the actual act of the click.  Time, time, time.  More time being spent on just this one message.  How many left?  Oh dear, I wish I had more time.  Why do I have to keep doing this clicking on that teeny-weeny button!?
 
In other words, I really could just do without that little button altogether.  If you are a "normal" type and using only one computer at your work station, well, maybe that's no big deal and so it doesn't bother you.  So then you might not be in this thread complaining about that little button, but it wasn't "normal types" that started Google to begin with.  Why would those non-normal types want to inconvenience other non-normal types?  That's not what Google was originally started for.  It was started to make things faster and easier and more convenienet.  That was the Net searching tool.
 
Then Gmail was started to make reading and composing mail faster and easier and more convenienet.  The bottom line - faster and easier and more convenient.  The beginning -- faster and easier and more convenient.  What happened?
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/18/12 4:38 PM
On Saturday, 19 May 2012 09:01:47 UTC+10, danpr987 wrote:
In the old look, this problem was solved with a method born of genius. It said either "show quoted" or "hide quoted." Genius is not appreciated much any more in Gmail, though, it seems. Being cute is preferred, without regard to readability. (Regardless of how the current team claims they are imposing this nightmare of the hidden text on us out of concern for readability.)

+1 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance amnucc 5/18/12 4:47 PM
@ KiethR



The top of every new message in a conversation has a reply button at the top right and the avatar (that you have already mentioned) at the top left.  I don't see how a follow-up post could be missed.

Compare the two screen caps.  Old and new Gmail versions of the same conversation.  Both show the 6th of 7 emails in a conversation.  In the old version I have an indicator that there is another email beginning below the bottom of my screen.  In the new version, no "reply button" is visible because the message starts below the bottom of the screen.  No indication of another message in a thread is a FUNDAMENTAL LOSS OF FUNCTION.
New Gmail fails at its basic purpose of reading/responding to email.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance hongtak 5/18/12 5:51 PM
The only way to improve GMail is to revert back to the old but usable look from this crappy broken new look
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/18/12 6:16 PM
I acknowledged elsewhere that such a feature existed.  I never used it - in fact I found it distracting to have a coloured object popping around in the middle of the ads until I got used to it, so I didn't notice that it had gone.  If I could have, I would have switched that off.  Once you finish reading that last visible message, you will clearly see that there is another following.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Himeno 5/20/12 4:49 AM
The html interface no longer allows changing of the send from address.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Himeno 5/20/12 4:51 AM


On Saturday, May 19, 2012 8:34:20 AM UTC+10, M.I.H. wrote:
 
Then Gmail was started to make reading and composing mail faster and easier and more convenienet.  The bottom line - faster and easier and more convenient.  The beginning -- faster and easier and more convenient.  What happened?

Larry Page happened.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance alansd 5/22/12 5:31 PM
Agreed, but in the mean time, you really should try the userstyle. It's like getting 95% of the old look back. I find it outrageous that Google doesn't make something like it an official style. If one person can hack together something on top of the new code that comes that close to the old UI, then google (presumably the experts on the old and new UI) could do a 100% job in a week. The fact that they don't pretty much proves they don't care about our pain.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance alansd 5/22/12 5:31 PM
That's  http://techably.com/make-gmail-older-look-permanent/4215/ 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Sarah 5/22/12 6:11 PM
Hey everyone, just a quick note that I was a bit behind over the weekend but I'm caught up again on this thread.

John, apologies -- I could swear I posted back to you but I clearly see here that I didn't -- the team is looking into the problem you raised regarding the feedback widget.

Everyone else, thanks for continuing to share your feedback to help us make Gmail better. We're continuing to discuss the issues you are raising, but I don't have any additional updates at this time.

Best,
Sarah
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/22/12 7:11 PM
Has the Web Search tool been changed?  I mean, I do not receive a list anymore when I use the search input box on my index page.  I am directed to what looks like the search page with that Google logo in the middle and it seems I must retype my search terms.
 
Is anyone else seeing that?
 
Yes, I am repeating my post just done in the other thread.  I am doing so because we were informed the other thread won't receive responses from Google Employees and this seems rather significant.  NO, if this is indeed a change in how we can access the search tool from our Gmail index page, then this is not "rather" significant -- is is REALLY significant.  I sure hope this is a temporary thing, for whatever reason!
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/22/12 7:23 PM
This is seriously uncool to the max!  And that is stating quite, quite uncool!!
 
I have just done four screen shots and if this is a bug, fine -- but if this is the way of the furture with this product I am going to give serious reconsideration to my statement in 2010 that I wouldn't jump ship for any reason.
 
For one thing, the redirect is taking me to the Google Japan search page and that just ain't right!!
 
I really, really want to read that this is some kind of weird glitch.  Please.  And thank you.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/22/12 7:46 PM
Works as expected for me in FF 12.  I get a list and I have to go to the bottom of the list to select Search the web,  Then it opens Google.com.  I would prefer that it open Google.com.au, but...

There has been a change to the search feature in the last 24 hours:
http://gmailblog.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/improved-search-in-gmail.html
But it should produce a longer list rather than none.  You could try restarting Gmail.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/22/12 7:47 PM
PS: Yes, that makes what you see a glitch.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/22/12 8:04 PM
Appreciate the response.  Used to be the page with actual results for my search term would show.  Not a page where I had to retype the search term. 
 
EDIT:  By "list" I don't mean that mini list in the drop down box on the Gmail index page.  I mean, a whole new page with all the normal search results showing and that would be page 1 of many.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/22/12 8:22 PM
And I just popped over to my VFW account and it is doing the same thing.  That's the one that I opened first and seems to get the version/tool changes last -- after all my other accounts are changed.  It is doing exactly the same thing with regard to search.  That tends to make me think it is a temporary problem.  That account never changes at the same time as the MiH account, unless it's a glitch.
 
Gosh I hope this is a glitch.  Has to be.  Can't believe G'xecutives would try to push us that hard.  Would they?
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance romeolima 5/23/12 1:05 AM
Hi Sarah. Here's an issue that I call Functionality. Us Apple/Mac users have a visual on screen when the computer is processing. According to how you feel about it it's known as Beach Ball or The Spinning Beachball of Death.

To quote from MacWorld :
Your mouse pointer becomes the rotating color wheel or "spinning beach ball" and this generally indicates that your Mac® is engaged in a processor-intensive activity. For example, applying a Gaussian blur to an image in Adobe® Photoshop® is a processor-intensive activity.

In most cases, the "beach ball" disappears within several seconds. However, there are cases when the "beach ball" spins protractedly, a condition colloquially known as "The Spinning Beach Ball of Death" (SBBOD).

I rarely noticed this feature prior to the New Look because my computer is so fast. Now it's intrusively on my screen a lot of the time often followed by a crash and it's getting worse not better. This is definitive proof that the new system is slow and buggy, particularly the Forum. The point is, is Google working on it and when will it be fixed ?


Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance arentsc1 5/23/12 6:48 AM
can we please just bring back color coding in conversations?  so simple.  so helpful.  still inconceivable that this feature would be dropped.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Parody 5/23/12 2:44 PM
Email should be considered as an electronic form of an envelope and a sheet of paper.  The contents are separate.

While the signature hiding/trimming feature hasn't been an issue for me, I think giving us the option to choose whether to hide/trim by default is a good idea.  (In general, features that alter the content of a message or the way that message is shown initially should be optional.)
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/23/12 5:27 PM
You are spot on, Parody.  Unfortunately, the idea now at Google, Inc. seems to be that the email product, Gmail, is now an extension of the Google+ product.  I wonder they don't just change the name of the NEW product to G+mail.
 
The idea provided that it is all just to give the Google products as a whole a similar look and feel is, in my view, a smokescreen.  Unless it meant the look and feel of Google+. 
 
Well, there is the Larry Page directive to the Google Employees that they push Google+ or else.  I suppose that would mean those in other product departments must use more energy to help Google+ than to help their own product.  Of course, we hear little to zero about whether the Larry Page directive has impacted how the departments of other products (other than Google+) achieve their own goals of proper maintenance, quality control, response to customer complaints, etc.
 
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/26/12 3:56 AM
On Saturday, 26 May 2012 18:18:23 UTC+10, danpr987 wrote:
KeithR, I believe it's your turn to be pompous again, and lie about me again. Let's play!

@danpr987, I think you should take on some anger management training.  At the rate you are currently posting, you'll be up to around 1000 posts by the time Sarah and the other Googlers get back to work and that will definitely get you banned for spamming.  Your personal attacks are also bordering on the edge of acceptable, so I suggest you take some time out and do something fun. 
This message has been hidden because it was flagged for abuse.
This message has been hidden because it was flagged for abuse.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/26/12 5:01 AM
On Saturday, 26 May 2012 21:16:14 UTC+10, danpr987 wrote:
You, who lied about me in this forum, are now lecturing me on appropriate posting behavior!

Not intended as a lecture, rather more as an encouragement to you to stay within acceptable bounds.  I don't want to see anyone shut out.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Legacy2000 5/26/12 5:06 AM
For the convenience of those who have issues with other participants, I have started a new thread:

https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!category-topic/gmail/Xz31_WrHt-o
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance spam.b.gone 5/26/12 5:29 AM
Maybe you should take some reading comprehension classes so that it wouldn't take up the 3/4 of all discussions you are in to keep going back to the same one word or sentence with you trying to explain all the bad in the world into it.

E.g. if 1 out of 100 is in favour, then it is a fact that opposition is less than 100% -- it is in fact 99%. You can try to argue with fact but you're just makiing a fool of yourself.

You should be removed from the forum for wasting the time of everyone. Precious time that bkc or any of the others could have spent giving actual help to people who actually need it. You have stolen that time.

Here's a suggestion: stop wasting everyone's time and start helping. I'm sure there's enough unanswered questions to go around. And if you have an ax to grind with someone from Google then write them a letter or visit them or whatever. Just leave us the frak alone.



On Monday, May 14, 2012 4:13:22 AM UTC+2, M.I.H. wrote:
In the interest of clarity, might the quote below in green be an example of a "serious" contribution to the discussion?
 
Even if only one person was in favour then there would be less than 100% in opposition, Sounds about equivalent to the claims that nobody likes the new Gmail layout. Vastly overestimated.
In furtherance of the process of clarification and as the subject of "snide comments" has been raised by a TC I wonder if an example of such a comment posted in this thread could be presented to us.
 
Thank you.
 
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance M.I.H. 5/26/12 5:48 AM
Wow, I'm flattered at the attention.  You dig up a 12-day-old post to start a flame war with me.  You've been missing my responses to you, right?  Or you like me so much you just had to get me to post something in response to something you wrote.
 
Wow, I am very flattered at that level of attention from someone who must be a very busy person.
 
So where do we go from here?  Wanna dance?
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance spam.b.gone 5/26/12 5:58 AM
Yea, I don't spend every waking moment on the forum -- I do have a life you know. I get that you like the attention but believe me when I say that I do not like you -- it is quite the contrary. I believe that you should have been banned long ago, when it was still the previous forum. I tried to call attention to your breaks against a number of forum guidelines but I was ignored. Would be still nice to see you go though.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/26/12 6:07 AM
Hey, @spam.b.gone, please be nice - we are trying to get away from personal attacks here.
This message has been hidden because it was flagged for abuse.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance spam.b.gone 5/26/12 6:18 AM
Just telling my honest opinion, Keith. I think I can like and hate whoever I want. I lay my cards on the table so there is no confusion.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/26/12 6:28 AM
@danpr987, if you are going to accuse, you are going to be asked to give the link.
This message has been hidden because it was flagged for abuse.
This message has been hidden because it was flagged for abuse.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Legacy2000 5/26/12 7:35 AM
Folks, this topic is about improving Gmail's function and appearance. I have started a thread for interpersonal disputes, please feel free to use it:

https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!category-topic/gmail/Xz31_WrHt-o
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance spam.b.gone 5/26/12 8:36 AM
dan:

What are the posting guidelines for Google Product Forums?

"Posts must not contain the following types of content:"
"Violent or bullying behavior. We don't allow threatening, harassing, or bullying of other users. This includes using profanity to abuse others."
"Breaking these guidelines might result in your post being removed. Severe abuses may lead to harsher penalties."
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Leslie Gospena 5/26/12 8:42 AM
I hope spam.b.gone wears small shoes because the post that he wrote about taking reading comprehension classes is where he really stuck his foot in his mouth.

MIH never wrote anything about whether 1 out of 100 was less than 100%. That sentence in that different font is from C Man.

MIH. only wrote to ask for examples of snide comments and above that quoted sentence he asked about whether that quoted sentence was a serious contribution.

MIH never disputed the percentage of anything.

Jeez spam.b.gone it might be better to be standing on more solid ground when you try to pick a fight with someone. Plus you should be much more careful about your own reading comprehension if you are going to accuse someone else that their reading comprehension is bad.

You really did step in big doodoo with that post spam.be.gone.

This message has been hidden because it was flagged for abuse.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/26/12 9:42 AM
Leslie,

Thank you! I am so pleased that you have not chosen to disagree with my mathematics. Sorry but I am having difficulty in finding where SBG said it was a statement by M.I.H. so perhaps I should take a course in reading comprehension. I do seem to be having problems at the moment which must be due to entering my second childhood having only recently escaped my first.

Question: When at school I was asked what I would like to do when I left.
Answer: Retire.

Question: At school again I was asked what my New year's resolution would be.
Answer: Never to make another New Year's resolution.

Question: Why the last two questions and answers?
Answer: They have as much in common with the subject of this thread as about 80% of the rest of the posts.


Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance spam.b.gone 5/26/12 11:33 AM
And yes, it was that other troll, danpr.
My recommendation to mih still stands: even though I gave the wrong example, he still fails to comprehend anything that is written to him.

My recommendation for you is pretty much the same: stop wasting people's time with useless clutter and start helping. If you are not willing to help, then leave.
This message has been hidden because it was flagged for abuse.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance spam.b.gone 5/26/12 1:09 PM
You did make the percentage statement in this thread. And not that it's your business, but I was replying with a real answer to a question asked from me.
This message has been hidden because it was flagged for abuse.
This message has been hidden because it was flagged for abuse.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/26/12 1:55 PM
This thread: ... needs to be unlocked.

Done (well, it wasn't locked as such, I just removed the duplicate pointer), and attempted to answer some of his questions.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/26/12 1:58 PM
Fozzie,

What makes you think it is locked.?
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance bkc56 5/26/12 2:19 PM
What makes you think it is locked.?

It was marked as a dup, I removed that just a bit ago so I could post to it.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/26/12 2:30 PM
Perhaps Fozzie would like to inform the poster that the other post should be removed as it has nothing to do with the thread it is in.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/26/12 3:13 PM
On Saturday, 26 May 2012 23:43:54 UTC+10, danpr987 wrote:
Here is the link. But first, a word about your disgusting behavior on this issue. The link I'm about to give below was posted only a few hours ago. In that post I quoted your lie about me. 
Now did you miss that post? Maybe you did. But in that case, maybe you can explain how you are not aware of the lie I am talking about, when you actually replied to this post!
Of course, in YOUR reply where you quoted my post, you somehow omitted my discussion of your lie, but I'm sure that was just a complicated mouse selection, keyboard error, and you never saw me point out your lie at all.

Yeah, that must be it.


Thank you for the link.  Unfortunately that link points inside this very thread to the following entry which was indeed posted (by you) only a few hours ago but quotes a post made ten days ago.  I don't see anything there posted by me that is untrue or even about you personally.  The "You" in my answer was general, the question on functionality was addressed to user @amnucc by @Fuzzy and you judged it to be provocation.  I disagreed with you about whether that was provocation as I also wanted to know the answer.  @Amnuc said: "... to restore the basic functionality that Google eliminated".

KeithR, I believe it's your turn to be pompous again, and lie about me again. Let's play!
- hide quoted text -

On Tuesday, May 15, 2012 11:48:42 AM UTC-4, danpr987 wrote:
Here is the answer.
I didn't say functionality was lost.
Accusing me of saying something I didn't say is not a provocation?
Maybe it's just called "lying".
How would you feel if somebody said "you keep saying" something you didn't say?
"Fuzzy" is a liar. And his goal in lying is to get people on his side, by attacking the person he's attacking. And you fell for it. He is achieving his goal. Now he's got YOU lying about what I supposedly have said.
The Google/TC war on users continues.

On Tuesday, May 15, 2012 5:04:06 AM UTC-4, KeithR wrote:
 
Do you want an answer, really?
I don't believe that's a provocation.  I too would like to know the answer.  You keep saying that functionality has been lost, but I haven't found anything missing.  If you think this is provocation, I apologise.  I really would like to know what you haven't found yet.
(unknown) 5/26/12 6:13 PM <This message has been deleted.>
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/26/12 6:34 PM
On Sunday, 27 May 2012 11:13:11 UTC+10, danpr987 wrote:
Here is the original link to the post where you NOW claim to have been posting about somebody else.
And I'm supposed to keep quiet in the face of this L___.

That link leads to:
On Tuesday, 15 May 2012 19:04:06 UTC+10, KeithR wrote:
I don't believe that's a provocation.  I too would like to know the answer.  You keep saying that functionality has been lost, but I haven't found anything missing.  If you think this is provocation, I apologise.  I really would like to know what you haven't found yet.
which is exactly what I copied into my post.  So your point is?

Edited to add:
You might also note that I don't accuse you of being a liar just because you interpret my words differently from my intention.  As well as finding a way to relax, you need to realise that this is an International forum and that not only does the interpretation of the English language differ amongst the countries that use it, but there are people here that have English as a second language.  Getting furious over a particular interpretation of a sentence is futile and very dangerous.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance The C Man ((mobile laureate)elder advisor) 5/26/12 6:43 PM
danpr,

I know exactly how you feel but if you try behaving by the rules you expect others to follow you could alleviate these feelings. I am on Tamulosin Hydrochloride which helps lower my blood pressure so I'll go and take one now. It's a good thing I'm in the UK and thanks to the National Health service and my age I do not have to pay for medications.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Notes+ 5/26/12 10:53 PM
Hi Kieth, thank you for apologising for calling loads of people 'morons'.

Well done.

Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance mikle108 5/26/12 11:07 PM
Hi guys,

I'd propose to return to the original topic of this thread: Gmail's appearance and functionality.

It seems that everybody (including googlers) clearly understands the situation:

1) Previous Gmail was nice and everybody was satisfied with it.

2) "New" Gmail is bad and almost nobody likes it. And definitely nobody needs it.

3) Because Larry Page wants to push/pull all Gmail users to his dead-born Google+, he wants users to "adjust" to what he does. De-facto this means the war with the users.

4) Google is losing (or has already lost) his charm of fresh and innovative company. Now it looks much more like Microsoft -- just monopolist with deep pockets and with big banner in his hands: "Give me more money!". But Microsoft had to look at Apple with its attention to the usability and user's comfort. Larry Page looks onto himself only. That's the big difference.

5) To improve Gmail's appearance and functionality you have to LISTEN to what users say, not to force them to "adjust" to what is not comfortable to them.

Regarding improvements: Gmail is for READING TEXT of the messages. NOTHING MORE. All other functions (chat, voice, video) are not necessary -- e.g., if I want to talk with my Gmail contact, I use Skype. If I want to send more or less long text ro official document to my Skype contact, I use Gmail. And you can do nothing to force me to merge these services. I just don't want this.

So, give us in Gmail more space for THE TEXT of messages, restore the previous color scheme, which did not distract attention, DON'T FORCE us to look at things which we don't want to look at. THIS will improve appearance and functionality.

"Banner blindness" will only progress with time, and you can do nothing with this. Your attempt to stove ads into our eyes forces us to create "blind spots" in the sight field, and this is VERY irritating.

Give the users what they NEED, and they will bring you what you want -- big money.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance spam.b.gone 5/27/12 12:46 AM
You might not remember it, still you made it:

---

danpr987Level 6 Post reply

May 7

You've seen people saying they like the new signature trimming? I thought the opposition to it was 100%, from what I've seen.
- hide quoted text -


On Thursday, May 3, 2012 9:11:44 AM UTC-4, Gmailisrunbyidiots wrote:
Why is it we can't turn off the signature trimming? it's obvious that a fairly large number of people don't care for it, and that a fairly large number want it. It seems like the ideal would be to make it optional.(preferably defaulting to off)
---

Doesn't matter really because I only used that to prove the need to improve one's reading comprehension skills, when that post was then quoted and misinterpreted.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance thomasxz 5/27/12 3:13 AM
When a email client, ordinary or web make it so hard to diffrent betweent read and unread, it has failede to it simpleste task, and have played falit.
When a web client require extra plugin to work propblery it had played falit, for plugin make it a non web client, I can't be sure the plugin is on all the compuers i used to check my web mail, yet another I can be sure ialllowed to install a plugin, and realy is not a solution on wonrg design.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance KeithR 5/27/12 4:24 AM
To get a different look try different themes.  What device are you using to view Gmail?  I use Gmail on two different devices, three different screens and can see the difference very clearly.
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance spam.b.gone 5/27/12 6:45 AM
You did say it so stop with the charade. And I certainly have done more help than you.
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Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance spam.b.gone 5/27/12 7:10 AM
You lost me there with the nonsense. Come back when you make sense.
Re: User Group to Improve Gmail Function and Appearance Sarah 5/27/12 9:29 PM
Everyone,

This was originally a thread for discussing Gmail, and has declined into a thread about discussing each other. These personal disagreements are not helping anyone, and are just distracting from the issues at hand. Plus, we don't allow personal attacks in this forum.

I'm closing this thread now, but if you would like to continue discussing Gmail, you are welcome to do so in a new thread. If there is a new discussion dedicated to improving Gmail, I'll go ahead and update this thread to link to it.

Thanks for understanding,
Sarah
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