Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe

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Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Thameen_Darby 2/12/06 8:22 AM
Hello

This is a grand post. I have spent the last few days assimilating this database.

For those interested in history, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, the Middle East, human rights, or refugees , this place mark may be of interest to them.

In the aftermath of the 1948 war between the Arabs and the Israelis, 800,000 Palestinians were deported, or fled, their native villages in Palestine where they lived for thousands of years. They became refuges since then. Their villages, around 700 of them, were subsequently destroyed totally or partially.

The issue of these refuges and their right to their native land remains the major obstacle to achieve a long desired peace between the Israelis and Palestinians in the Middle East's long and bitter conflict.

The post contains a list of the hundreds of destroyed Arab villages, classified by district. With links to websites that give further more detailed information about the particular village or town.

A list of the existing Arab villages and towns in the 1948 area and the 1967 area is available in another post on this community under the title "Existing Arab Localities in Mandate Palestine".


It has been a tedious work since I did not find the coordinates of the destroyed villages in one place. So I had to collect them from here and there.

Please email me for any corrections of coordinates or any updates. <tha...@hotmail.com>



Thameen Darby
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Lifta- A partially destroyed village in the Jerusalem district.

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Some Palestinians leaving their village in 1948.

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A refugee girl tending to her sick grandfather.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe fkhateeb 4/19/06 3:28 PM
Hello

WOW. This is an amazing post. Thank you very much for opening the eyes of people to this great tragedy that happened to the Palestinian people. Few people understand the gravity of 800,000 people being forcibly uplifted from their land and literally forced to live in tents.

I too, actually had been working on the exact same post for some time now. I had finished the districts of Yafa, al-Ramla, Tulkarm, Acre, Nazareth, and Beersheba. I was using palestineremembered.com also to find where the towns were, but it proved to be kind of unreliableas it only noted where the towns are by the distance and direction from the district center.

My relatives were also refugees. My mother's family was forced to leave Yaffa in 1948 and flee to Amman. My father's family was forced to leave Bayt Nabala (al-Ramla district) also in 1948 and move to the Jalzone refugee camp in the West Bank. Both of my parents were born after the war on 1948 so they were both born refugees. Not many people know that the plight of the Palestinians does not end with them leaving Palestine. Going from place to place and not being welcomed anywhere is just some of what the Palestinians had to go through.

I did notice a problem with your post, though. You have Yaffa under the Acre district. Thought you might wanna fix that.

Thanks again.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Gerardo64 4/19/06 9:04 PM
Hi Thameen_Darby

Excellent post. People can´t love what they don´t know, so your work is necessary.

Thanks for sharing this.
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Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe TOPlanner 5/2/06 7:55 PM
There were also hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees who were forced to flee Arab lands at the very same time, but this is not reflected in your posting. Perhaps someone should take the time to geographically document the many Jewish communities throughout the Arab world that no longer exist in order to provide some balance.
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Bias of placemarks, propaganda use of Google Earth barryannarbor 6/8/06 7:40 AM
The author of these placemarks has a definite bias and a purpose, which is to delegitimize the entire state of Israel. His sources are one-sided, and his description of events promotes his own agenda. This is, of course, one of the strengths or weaknesses of community maintened information sources - whoever can post material is free to do so, with no verification or editorial oversight.

1) The author of the placemarks fails to mark any Jewish settlements. His own reference material clearly notes dozens of locations, but from his presentation, one would assume that the entire area that now comprises Israel was devoid of any Jews, whatsoever.

2) The author's source material presents only one side's revisionist view of the 1948 war. For example, one would assume that the Arab armies conducted no military operations during the war. This ignores Arab assaults on Israeli settlements, and Israeli casualities.

3) He refers to the 1948 war as Al-Nakba (the Catastrophe) - a war viewed by Israeli's in a different light. Arab armies did march against Israel, attempting to destroy the State in its infancy.

4) The author attempts to state that all of the villages marked on the map were wiped out due to "ethnic cleansing." Some villages were evacuated during the course of the war (one of the miserable results of war is civilians being displaced), others due to aggression. The author chooses not to refer to the large number of Jews displaced from Arab countries. So, were the Jews of Eygpt, Morocco, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, and other nations ethnically cleansed?

Google Earth could become the location of yet another propaganda battle. Carefully consider the bias of the posts author and what he is trying to accomplish.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Myron_J 6/12/06 2:39 PM
I am a settler, on the West Bank in Kfar Etzion..a Jewish settlement, on land (purchased by Jews before 1948) that was to become part of Palestine in 1948.

I think the original post is biased, but legitamently so. It shows one perspective..in a powerful but fair way.

The original poster admits that refugees were either forced out OR FLED..We too must admit to both these possibilities and also recognize that our War of Independance was a catastrophe for the Palestinians..one that did not have to happen if Partitioin would have been accepted by the Arab World.

And we too have done wrongs. Some out of fear, or in the heat of battle, or due to need created by the rejectionism of our neighbors...or through moral insensitivity..We can not ignore our moral insensitivity.

Israel has a right to Exist! As does Palestine. There has been too much suffering. We must learn to see theirs, even if we are not totally responsible...and we must realize that we are part of the game that has created the suffering.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Thameen_Darby 6/13/06 10:57 AM
Waw

1472 downloads

I'm happy

Thameen
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Thameen_Darby 6/16/06 1:27 PM
Dear TOPlanner


I agree 100%.

I wish I had time to do the layer of former Jewish resident areas in the Arab world. But I do not. I wish some one takes on the task.

I am interested in this and it will be an interesting layer to see.

Thameen
No bias Thameen_Darby 6/16/06 1:55 PM
Dear barryannarbor

This layer is not about politics.

The scope of this layer is very well defined. This layer is about the arabic twons and villages and beduin localities that were destroyed after the 1948 war.

Although I'm not willing to talk politics here, but I like to respond to your points that you raised:

1. I did not mark jewish settlements, because tghis is not the subject of this layer, and they are include by default in GE. If you zoom close enough you can see any existing town or localities in Israel.

If you mean to include the Jewish settlements in the wake of the 1948 war. I think that is a brilliant idea. Lets make a layer of the Jewish communities in the 1948 and add it to this layer. That will be brilliant. Plz do it.

If you are interested in Jewish localities afected by the 1948 war, or other aspects of that era, why not make a layer that adds to the richness of GE?

2. I did not include any information about the war per se. It is outside the scope of this layer. I just put the placemarks of the destroyed localities. GE is not a history book, It is a dynamic map. Any one interested in history can go back to history books.

3. Al Nakba does not refer to the 1948 war. This war is called 'The 48 War", or the "war of independence". But the term Nakba refers to breakdown of the palestinian comunity that resulted from this war and the plight of the refugees that resulted from this. This layer simply showes the places of the villages and twons where these refugees came from. So in the context of the plight of the refugees, Al nakba is a suitable term.

4. This layer does not mention the cause of the displacement of the refugees. I was careful in writing the introduction not to poin fingures. This is a complex subject that needs long articles to analyse. It is outside GE context.

The displacement of Jews from Arab countries is another subject that warrants another project by itself.

Why do not you work on this project, it will be a great addition to GE. I'll try do it when I have time if no one does it. But needs lots of preparation.

I think it would be more constructive if we try build more comprehensive projects and not only give passive cretisizm. Collective additions is what makes GE great.

I suggest that we need to work on two projects:
1. The Jewish localities in 1948.
2. The Jewish Localities in the Arab countried pre 1967.
3. The 1948 war events.

All the best,

Thameen
Re: "Ethnic cleansing" was caused by Arab States webnut2000 6/17/06 2:11 PM
I agree with you barryannarbor.

The remark of ethnic cleansing is a complete lie. Israel did not force anyone out.

~~~~~~~~~~
Jordanian daily, Filastin (Feb. 19, 1949): "The Arab States...encouraged the Palestinians to leave their homes, temporarily, not interfering with the invading Arab armies." Khaled al-Azam, Syrian Prime Minister in 1949 (memoirs, 1973): "We brought destruction upon the refugees, by calling on them to leave their homes." London Economist (Oct. 2, 1948): "The most potent of the factors [in the flight] were announcements made by the Palestinian-Arab Higher Committee, urging all Haifa Arabs to quit, intimating that those remaining would be regarded as renegades." Arab over-confidence prior to the war (600,000 Jews vs. 27, 000,000 Arabs) was crashed by defeat, intensifying the flight of Arabs.

Almost 200,000 refugees left BEFORE the large scale war erupted in May 1948, while the Arabs had the upper hand! Arabs left Haifa and Jaffa, while British troops were still there, pleading with them to stay.

The British Mandate ordered Arabs and Jews to evacuate towns, where they were a minority. Arabs left (e.g. Tiberias), with encouragement of Arab countries, while Jews remained (e.g. Safed and its Arabs of Algerian origin). Arab evacuation - and the fall of Abd al-Kader al-Husseini in the Castel battle - was highlighted by Arab media, triggering a Domino Effect of further evacuations.

"Arab leaders were responsible for the [Arab] flight, disseminating exaggerated rumors of Jewish atrocities, in order to incite the Arabs, thus instilling fear in the hearts of the Palestinians." (Jordanian daily, al-Urdun, April 9, 1953). Ismayil Safwat, Commander of Palestinian Operations (March, 1948): "The Jews haven't attacked any Arab village, unless attacked first."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The "author" also refers to placemarks in the middle of the desert , where no human has ever lived (or lives today).

There are no signs of any buildings (or ruins) on those placemarks from any period whatsoever. With the new resolution you would be able to see it.

I rest my case.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Propaganda localt 6/17/06 9:07 PM
Too bad you are not checking information before posting:

1) Where the map shows 'Arab Ghawarina' is actually an Israeli town 'Qiryat Motzkin' that was founded in 1934, 14 years before you claim that 'Palestinians were deported'.

2) Arab Ghawarina is also known as 'Jisr Zerqa' which still exists as an Arab town in Israel, but about 15 miles to the north. Funny that a Jewish guy know more about your cities then you.

Discourse not related to discussion of placemark(s) removed.
Re: "Ethnic cleansing" was caused by Arab States Thameen_Darby 6/18/06 2:54 AM
The Localities in the desert were beduin semi-villages.

You will not see the ruins because all villages and localities were buldozed, removed and leveled to the ground just after the war.

As for who is responsible for the refugee problem, I do not think it is the place to discuss it here. But I may advise you to read from more neutral books than the sources you cited. Beni Morris is a good start.

However, although most neutral historian agree that some form of ethnic cleansing took place, and to maintain the extereme neutrality of this post, I removed the phrase "ethnic cleansing".



Th
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe - Info Hanaq_Botas 6/19/06 4:55 AM
Hi Thameen Darby,

Congratulations. Great that Walid Khalidi's book "All that Remains" can now be found at Google Earth.

I won't go into heated discussion now, but just give some facts:

Many villages are hard to find back, but around Jerusalem there are a few villages of which the houses are still standing. The placemarks are a little bit out of place:

Lifta might once have extended up to where your placemark is, but the leftovers are only visibly (very clearly now in relative high resolution) 300 meters north-north east, on the slopes and down into the valley. The Israeli government has all kinds of plans there, like turning it into an artist's village (because of the picturesque Arab dwellings..), but untill now the houses just keep standing, with or without their roofs. In one of the cellars I found the leftovers of a horse, (probably killed in 1948?). Some houses are more or less inhabited by squatters who took nothing more than a sleeping bag; a few on top are renovated.
Lifta is surrounded by highways now, above. And you can see another road under construction down in the valley.

Houses of Deir Yassin, where a massacre took place in 1948, are visible 650 meters north - northeast of your placemark, between the apartment buildings of the jewish religious neighbourhood Har Nof. They are in use by a psychiatric hospital now.

Al Maliha is located 1200 meters to the north of your placemark. It's inhabited now by Jews. I noticed an Israeli flag at one of the houses. Mosque and minaret seem intact; no idea what their use is now. The neirby shopping mall is called "Malcha", as is the brandnew train station.

I added placemarks with the right location. I'll check other places that I once managed to visit.

Hanaq
Malha-Al Maliha Myron_J 6/19/06 8:12 AM
Hanaq:

Is that the mosque of Al Maliha to the right side of your placemark?

I take it that you were in the neighborhood. Does it look like the Mosque is just empty?

It might be nice to post a picture of the mosque or houses in the place mark.

You mention Deir Yassin. I live in the Etzion Bloc, which was overrun during the war of 1948 and its inhabitants were all killed after surrendering. Some would say this was a retalliation for the events of Deir Yassin.

The Jordanian Army that was here, on the ruins of Kfar Etzion, erected a mosque...that now houses a museum. This is not a simple thing to accept, i imagine. (We also used it as a synagogue for a while.)

The problem of holy sites that represent other people's real past and present dreams is very problematic. The Arab population of East Jerusalem is known for saving synagogues after 1948. The events after the Israeli pullout from Gush Katif took a different turn..but i think i can see where that came from, even if i don't justify it.

I am attatching a placemark of what i believe is the mosque of Zakkariya..now a small villiage of Jews who came from Kurdistan. I understand that the people of Zakkariya have made pilgrimages to the village that created some tension with the new residents. (On the other hand I have heard of interesting and positive relationships that have developed between the original Arab dwellers and the new Jewish dwellers in a number of places.)

May memories persist...but may we walk into a better future.

Myron
Re: Malha-Al Maliha Hanaq_Botas 6/19/06 4:31 PM
Hi Myron,

Yes, I was in the neighbourhood and walked up and down the small streets, but I can't say exactly which building in GE is the mosque. When I saw it, a few years ago, it was in state of neglect.
For some pictures see:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jerusalem/al-Maliha/index.html

I was not in Zakariyya. According to Walid Halidi - All that Remains, Washington 1992 (you'll find that excellent book on depopulated Palestinian villages not only in Palestinian libraries, but also in the Hebrew University in Jerusalem),
the jewish village of Zekharya was established in 1950 on village land, close to the village site.
For a picture of the Zakariyya mosque in 2002:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Hebron/Zakariyya/Picture4234.html

Hanaq
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Anonymous 6/24/06 5:19 AM
This is an excellent and very important post. Thank you.

Peace
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe AndyPol 6/24/06 10:01 AM
Excellent post Thameem .

I have always had a very limited knowledge on what is a very complicated and emotive subject, my knowledge extending only as far as what I have seen on Western European news programmes I'm afraid.

I would not worry about the allegations of bias in your post.... the majority of GE historical posts could be viewed as biased, depending on what the poster's interpretation of history is. If anyone has the knowledge and time to create another post with different viewpoint then it would be great.

What I like especially about your post is that is has not degraded into a verbal battle and trading of insults that has caused the Mods to lock other posts previously. Lets hope it can continue to bring mixed, but polite views on the subject.

I not too sure that I am any clearer about the subject, but your post has certainly opened my mind to the difficulties in that part of the world.

Well done
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Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Thameen_Darby 6/26/06 9:33 AM
Dear Ben

Hi to you and your Bong,

Thanks for visiting the post and commeting on it.

Let me also thank you for your other contributions to GE and this forum, you are a great asset to us.

Love

Thameen
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe - Info Thameen_Darby 6/26/06 10:05 AM
Dear Hanaq

Thank you thank you

This is the kind of feed back that is very constructive and I need.

I based my layer on a map, so I'm really amazed ow close I was ....

I'm gathering updates that I recieve via mail, now I have yours.

By the way, did you find Ein Karim exact?

Can you give me the villages that I got their location well?

I studied in Jerusalem and I visited Lefta and Ein Karin few times. Its very heart breaking for a Palestinian. I hope they do not bildoze Lifta too.

Thank you,

Thameen
Re: Malha-Al Maliha Thameen_Darby 6/26/06 10:10 AM
Great Place Mark My friend Myron,

Yes I agree, the issue o former holy places is an open wound. I hope more progress will be done in this issue.

Thameen
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Propaganda Thameen_Darby 6/26/06 10:23 AM
Dear Localt,

Thank you for ur update on the Jisr Al Zarqa site. I will check what you have provided and correct it in my next update if it is true.

No it is not "funny" that a Jewish guy may know better than me. Actually most of our most reliable info about the Nakba came from israeli historians who had access to the archives of the 1948 era.

The political situation of the 1948 and the UN resolutions are not the subject of this discussion, not for me at least.

Peace

Thameen
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Thameen_Darby 6/26/06 10:32 AM
Dear Andy

Thank you for your input and nice words.

Yes I think that it is very difficult to deal with history and make every one happy, specially with a subject which is the material of a bloddy conflict.

But I believe also that trying to understand history in as neutral tems as possible is very important for making peace.

It is sensitive to deal with history, but it creates dialoge, and dialoge dissipates fears and creatues mutual understanding. And that is good.

I visited some of ur posts and I liked them, will check the rest soon



Thameen
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Thameen_Darby 6/26/06 11:02 AM
That will be a nice project

But I do not like the term " ....provide some balance...."

I hate to think that some people see in the tragedy of Eastern Jews as a BALANCE to the tragedy of Palestinian refugees.

I think it is a good idea to document the plight of the Eastern Jews who came from arab countries because it is a tragedy and because we need to understand history, not because it is a BALANCE.

Thameen
Only the palestinians remained as post ww2 reugees shlomosh 7/11/06 3:25 PM
The tragedy of being refugees was shared by over 100 million people during and after the second world war, when empires collapsed and new world order has been formed. None of those refugees have kept their status, and they integrated within the countries they were deported to. None, except the palestinians, who were less than .6% of the then refugees. The difference is that the arab states, the palestinian's hosts, would not accept the outcome of the failed war which they asserted in 1948, and maintained the refugee status to all palestinians, limiting their movement and denying them basic civil rights. Meanwhile, about the same number of jews left the same arab countries and migrated to Israel.

In India and Pakistan, where massive populations were displaced, following their independance, there are no refugee camps anymore. The same goes to Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Russia, South Korea, and many many more.

One cannot undo history, nor can the palestinians deny the sad fact that they should consider other options, rather than to pray - and act - to annihilate Israel. So far, this was the only mode they operated.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe eliboy22 7/12/06 3:10 AM
I would just like to make a small correction,
the main two main problems stopping the peace procces between,
israel,and a part of its population wich refuses to see itself as part,
of the country they live in,calling themselves the palestinians,
Is:
1)For some reason the "palestinian" population wants to dump every jew in the state of israel into the sea,and they want to have the entire country.
2)Also the state of israel has no problem about the jewish and non jewish population who think israel has no right to exist,or publicly protest against its decisionsand lets them live in its country,
It would be suacide for any jew or non-jew to go and live in in "palestinian" teritorry,and say that they should become part of israel,
and let prosperity and a huge drop in crime enter their lives.
And just try to say that the so called "jihad"(wich for some reason i dont understand,it is a holy deed to purposefully blow up little kids on buses),
is wrong,and its death for you.
in isarel that does not happen,its called democracy and free speech,
While,apparently in the "palestinian territories"they understand democracy to be a corrupt election,and eanstead of free speech,
theyve got free murder.
The refugees have a right to the place they live in,of course,
But only the ones that have a valid excuse why they left the country,
aparently there where around a million others who sought it was OK to stay in israel,and di not listen to the calls of the clergy to leave,eanstead of be under the jurisdiction of the jewish infidels.
And there is this:

– Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6, 1948.

"The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees."

At least half of the refugees left of their own free will,some maybe had a military record to hide,while others just left,because of the calls of the clergy o.r the hope of a invading army,in which case the arab states
that where going to send the armies should care for them,
which is mostly already the case,
as almost all of the refugees settled in those countries,
so that the job is already half done,
Now the refugees have turned into several millions,
so bringing them into israel,will cause a huge problem,
to put it mildly.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe psarj 7/12/06 8:27 AM
Congratulations and thanks for the astonishing amount of work you've put into creating this set of placemarks.

I have the utmost admiration for your tolerance and patience in corresponding about what must be, to you, a very emotional subject.

Peace,
Paul
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe DmitryR 7/12/06 1:38 PM
I think that today we are mature enough as a nation to look in a mirror and say that, yes, we did expell most of the arabs of then Palestine, during and right after the 1948 war.
And honest enough to say that we had no other choice but to do it, because otherwise the creation of Jewish national state would be impossible.

It is also worth noting, that for the most part the inhabitants of the evicted villages were not innocent bystanders. Most of the mature male arabs in Palestine took active part in the attempted genocide of the Jewish population, initiated by neighboring Arab states.

Let's have no illusions. Had we lost the 1948 war, the entire Jewish community of Palestine, including those that had just excaped the claws of the Nazis, would have been massacred. It was us or them. Had we kept the majority of Arabs here, the Jewish state would have been impossible - instead living in the middle of Tel-Aviv would have been like living in the middle of Gaza or Hebron today. This is not why we came here, is it? This is also the reason why there must never, ever be any way for the refugees to return - otherwise we will simply loose the state.

I have no regrets, although I do recognize the tagedy of the situation. We have no way back, to the past where the millions of us would again be subject to the whim of some nation suddenly gone insane. The chief purpose behind the creation of Israel - "Never Again" - has to be maintained, and for it to be maintained, Israel must by necessity stay a jewish nation-state - no way back, no refugee return. That's just it. On the other hand, the palestinians have no way BUT back, because the Arab states refuse, on purpose, to assimilate them, by that reducing them to a status of weapon against Israel. They fight for what they see is justice, but our ideas of what is just are completely opposite.

So, here we are. All that remains to be said, is this -
We, the Jews of Israel, either accept that the UN decision to create the state of Israel in 1948 was wrong, and we are not worthy of sovereignity - and then the only honest thing left to do would be to pick up the luggage, go to airport and fly straight to some place like Canada or Australia...
Or, we forget about our silly attempts to try to stay with our hands clean while living in the slaughterhouse, and we start maintaining the law and order here - OUR law and order - using the same methods King Hussein used during Black September and Assad used in Hama. They are still in power, are they not?

If we will keep on refusing to accept the fact that we are in the Middle East, and not on the beach of Geneva Lake - consider the first option, and emigrate to Europe. Ah, and don't forget to visit Auschwitz on your way there. That just might remind you of the reason that was for the state you just gave up on.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Anonymous 7/12/06 11:17 PM
I think your first option is by far the more honest and honorable one. Just my 2 cents.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe ed.sterrett 7/13/06 10:47 AM
It appears that this discussion has run it's course within the parameters of this BBS. There's a lot more to be said on both sides, but this is not the proper forum for that kind of interchange.

There are MANY discussion boards and forums elsewhere (about 12.6 million, in fact) where political discussions regarding this topic is not only appropriate, but encouraged. Please continue this in one of those places.

=============

7/19 - This thread is now reopened for discussion about the placemarks. The current situation in the region is off-topic, as is any other reply not directly related to this excellent collection of placemarks.

Keep it civil. In here, we are not Israeli, Palestinian, Eastern, Middle Eastern, Western, or anything other than fellow Google Earth Community citizens. Any replies added to this thread that obviously denigrate, insult or otherwise detract from the diplomatic tone set by the original poster will be removed, as per the BBS rules.

Let's play nice, and learn something in the process.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Thameen_Darby 7/19/06 3:34 PM
Thanks for unblocking the discussion. I hope this forum stays professional and neutral as much as possible.

Plz residents of Israel/Palestine, I'm waiting your feedback regarding the correct coordinates of the villages.

Thameen
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Haron 7/25/06 3:02 AM
Hi

I have no idea who this guy thinks he is.
All I know is that there is no cennection between Kafr Kama, where I live, and the Palestinians.
No palestinian lives in Kafr Kama and the village was surely not founded by them.
The people living in this village are Circassians (Adygha) and it was founded in 1880 by circassians who got here with help from the turks after the Circassian war of independence against Russia.
My people established this village from mere ruins, and from then till today all the villagers are Circassians, we speak our own native language and keep our own traditions from Caucasus, our mother land.

to larn more about our history:


Circassian online library
Re: Welcome Circassian Myron_J 7/25/06 8:21 AM
Dear Haron,

Welcome. It is indeed ironic that the first time i really learn something about the Circassians is here, on a thread dedicated to the Palestinian Nakbah.

I see that the annual Circassian festival is very soon and I wish you all the best.

I went to read about
Circassians in the Diaspora and see how complicated things are.

After reading about our Israeli community of Circassians, where the situation seems pretty good, i read about the pride of the jordanian Circassians take in joining the Palestinian fight against Zionism in the 1936.

Are all Circassian's Suni or is it mixed.

Can minorities like the Druze and the Circassians in Israel, Syria, Jordan help bridge between the struggling cousins? What do you think?

With Blessings of Quiet for all sides of the border.
myron
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Hanaq_Botas 7/25/06 8:55 AM
Hi Haron,

As Thameen puts Kafr Kama as a destroyed village as well as an existing locality, there must be a mistake, which is not unusual with such a vaste work as he did. That's the great thing about this forum: to find the truth together.
Thanks for the information and the link about the Circassians. Is it true that there is one other Circassian village, called Rehanya?

Regards,
Hanaq
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe webnut2000 7/25/06 3:24 PM
Quote:

Thanks for unblocking the discussion. I hope this forum stays professional and neutral as much as possible.

Plz residents of Israel/Palestine, I'm waiting your feedback regarding the correct coordinates of the villages.

Thameen




1944 image:



Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Thameen_Darby 7/29/06 5:28 AM
Hi Haron

You started your message by "I have no idea who this guy thinks he is", and I think this is not a polite way to start ur feedback.

Yes Kafr Kama should not be included in the destroyed villages database. It is not a destroyed village, it survived the 1948 war.

As for if kufr kama residents are Palestinians or not, this is beyond the scope of my project. So do not panic.

In the next update, Kafr Kama will be removed from the destroyed villages group.

Thameen
Re: No bias vasechek 7/30/06 4:48 PM
Thameen,
Your effort is commendable and your position in limiting the scope of the layer to a certain collection of data pieces is understandable. However, have you considered that in the absense of your clearly stated intent for creating this layer and with the one-sided nature of your collection of data points you make it very easy for the willing to jump to certain conclusions. It is a sad fact that most do NOT go back to history books and limit the research done in order to form (or confirm) an opinion or even an ideology to the easily available (Internet) resources - especially the ones that only provide a maximally concentrated set of data points that are easy to digest. Can you convince yourself that after reading your original post and reviewing your data none of your readers (institutionalized mental cases notwithstanding) will jump to the conclusion that Jews have perpetrated vicious and unprovoked genocide against the Arab population of Israel and therefore today there can be no justice until all of those villages that your collection includes are re-built and their Arab inhabitants are allowed to return there? Would you take responsibility for the minds (and actions that the state of these minds bears) of even 0.5% of the 1400+ (according to one of your posts) of those that have downloaded your collection and used the information to come to a conclusion of hate and justify hateful actions, including physical violence, on the parts of themselves or their brethren?
Information is a tricky thing. It can be used as a weapon. History is tricky, too, and no single fact or event in history is not contested by two or more opposing views or even witness accounts of that "fact" or event. Throughout the history, history has been used for propaganda and incitement. The mechanism is simple and very effective - present a highly concentrated set of "factual evidence" (all furthering one single idea while omitting any information that might contradict the idea) using the language, statistics and/or images that can lead the subjects of the exercise to a single conclusion - the idea behind the dataset.
I don't want to make any conclusions about yourself or anyone else in this e-community, but isn't the purpose of this community to add something positive, constructive and useful to the world? And, if so, isn't the responsibility of each poster to weigh the potential benefit vs. damage that might be caused by their post. One of your grateful readers apparently plans to teach his kids about the "land that was stolen from us" using your data as visual aids. He's probably not the only one to make use of your collection in that way. Are you contributing to the solution or the problem of the existing conflict between Arabs and Jews?
To the moderator who is trying to de-politicize the discussion - the original post and layer can be (and are) interpreted by most in the community as highly political, reflecting on one of the most serious and violent conflicts in the modern world and appears to support an opinion on one of the sides in the conflict (whether or not that is the intention of the author). Why are controversial layers, such as this one, which could be classified as ethnic propaganda, allowed on GE, but the discussion of the issues raised by the original post is censored?
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe vasechek 7/30/06 5:09 PM
Quoting Myron_J:
"Israel has a right to Exist! As does Palestine. There has been too much suffering. We must learn to see theirs, even if we are not totally responsible...and we must realize that we are part of the game that has created the suffering. "

Quoting another responder to the original post:
"My son is 10 months old! Soon Insha’ Allah I will start teaching him about our stolen land and villages!!
We –Palestinians- believe that our return to our beloved land PALESTINE is very close."

Myron, I hate to disappoint you, but what you say is impossible until the intent and honest effort are mutual and extremists on both sides are overwhelmed. I do not see how ripping several one-sided facts (no matter how tragic) out of context of history and presenting to the world as a form of boiled-down truth can lead to the building of the said intent/effort and eliminating extremist views.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe p0ul1234 7/30/06 5:11 PM
Thanks this is great, i had a similar thing for India, it is brillant and really intresting
_________________________
POUL1234
Re: Nakba- A Naive Israeli?? Myron_J 7/30/06 8:50 PM
While perhaps naive, i am aware of the point you raise and i even agree.

Blatant propoganda abounds..and this place is trying to do something different with the same data..And, i would agree that this data is being presented in an interpretive context that is a big challenge in light of the ongoing conflict.

I believe that Thameen is sincere. I believe your post to to him about the nature of the thread is, like your reply to me, valid and pretty much on target. It is a challenge to Palestinian respondants- maybe one that is almost impossible to meet verbally...The same way it is not easy for me to verbally say the word Nakba.

My participation here give me a chance to express what i believe lies in the basis of Zionism...a deep love of my Land, a commitment to my people AND a commitment to fullifll these with eyes open to reality..understanding that there are other people here as well.

Of course, as humans, we fail a lot on the way...but I believe that at the core, besides being humans who fail, we, Israelis (Zionists) are also humans who feel.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Hanaq_Botas 7/31/06 5:22 PM
Hi Thameen:

I noticed you updated the file. Great. I'll keep putting comments on the locations:

Your placemark for Kafr Bir'im , a Christian village on the Lebanese border, depopulated in 1948 and levelled in 1953, is very close. 300 meters southwest the church is still standing; at least it was when I visited there May 1997. See my placemark. The site is now a national park around an antique synagogue excavated there (before 1948 as far as I know), 50 meters north in the upper left corner of the grass field.

Some people of Kafr Bir'im apparently went or were transported to Jish , three kilometer southeast, that still exists as a village, 500 meters east of your placemark. You put it as a destroyed village and a still existing one at the same time. There might be some truth in that, as part of the original population might have fled after some atrocities in 1948. Walid Khalidi does not mention Jish as a destroyed village. I would like to hear more facts from people there.

I repeat a main source for the destroyed villages:

Walid Khalidi (editor), All that Remains. The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948 , Washington D.C. 1992.
It's also available in Arabic. It's quite expensive now, but libraries should have it or order it at the
Institute for Palestine Studies in Washington.

Three earlier remarks of mine, that you already included in your update, I mention here, so that anyone can react:

- Of Suba , located on a hilltop, only the antique (Byzantine) fundaments of the village are left, as an archeological dig, now belonging to kibbutz Tsuba to the west.

- Bayt Thul I visited with a former villager, her son, his wife and 4 grandchildren. We had a picknick at the ruins of their house on the southern slope of the hill there. They showed me the wells and the rubble where the house once stood. Apparently many stones were used to make a lookout-point.

- The village basin of Imwaz, destroyed in 1967, is clearly visible. The area is now called Park Canada; the village was turned into an archeological (Roman) site along the water from the hill, southeast. It's now a picnic area were I noticed both Jewish and Palestinian visitors.

All the best,

Hanaq
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Thameen_Darby 8/1/06 3:49 AM
Thanks Loads Hanaq

Your contributions are very valuable and rewarding.

Thameen
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Aniksker 8/1/06 6:30 AM
it is easy to focus in on this or that settlement, and one can write reams on the suffering of unarmed civilians, whether they be Arab or Jewish. Ultimately, though, this is a clash of civilisations; both lay claim to the same piece of land, and there is no way out until one side attains its goal.

Contemporary Arab practice is to deny any ancient Jewish settlement (Jesus was presumably a muslim), although it is striking how many Arab settlements have names derived from the older Jewish ones. From a Jewish perspective, the (ancient) tradition records that after the destruction of the temple and the exile of the Jews, the Arabs will be given control of the holy land for a limited time period. As the exile draws to a close, and the Jews return to the holy land, the Arabs will oppose them. This continues until their alloted time span runs out. So here we are.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Myron_J 8/1/06 7:34 AM
Aniksker, you paint a picture that is a "lose lose" situation, with both sides convinced that there must be confrontation in order to get to the goal...total control fo the Land.

I believe there are other options...

Prezionist Jews new to wait for the Messiah, and Zionists, secular and religious, have known that the goal of Political Zionism is an independant state in PART of the Land of Israel and not control over Israel in its Biblical Borders.

The Temple and Total return are dependant on the Messiah..and he is dependant on people being ready..not on people warring. We have so much Good to do before he comes,

Many Christians who believe that "Jews must be saved" have learned to wait for the second coming....they too have learned patience.

So, while you are right, to an extent, that there is a clash of civilization, as the worlds traditional religions learn to live within the framework of modern reality (Pls..people...learn a little quicker) we begin to share more values that can lead to cooperation and mutual respect.

This sounds overly optimistic...Granted, it is to an extent..but it is the challenge facing us..the only option we have.
Re: Nakba- Data and Thoughts Myron_J 8/1/06 7:58 AM
Dear All,

This thread is specifically a tool for Palestinians add data and information about sites associated with villages they lived in prior to 1948.

It also is an opportunity for us all to discuss how this project can develop alongside an understanding that cooperation between People's is of utmost importance.

The moderators have been very lenient in allowing this thread to continue..and this is good.

One poster, jo_raedtaha76 , posted a mesage or two that have been removed..perhaps by himself or by the moderator. The posts had to do with his vision of the future, an Islamic Republic where Moslems, Christians and Jews could live.

I believe his vision is very problematic to say the least...but i felt it was coming from an honest place that deserved to be addressed in a respectful way--but with the sincere and firm warning that trying to fulfill these types of dreams in this world..will suredly turn them into nightmares.

It is too bad that his posts have disappeared..I fear that the vision, the dangerous vision has not disappeared with the post.

During these difficult times for the entire region...my blessings to all.
myron
Re: Nakba- A Naive Israeli?? vasechek 8/1/06 11:00 PM
Myron,
Naive you may be, but I only wish there were enough of the naive ones on both sides to outweigh the fanatical ones.
We can count, analyze and display for all world to see the knocks and bruises sustained in this fight untill hell freezes over, but it will get us no closer to the solution. If we keep taking an eye for an eye - it will just be a fistfight of the blind. Several times in the recent years Israel made serious and material concessions with the hopes of repairing the peace and against the will of a big portion of its own people. Every time their opponents proved the opposition to such moves correct. The emotional and mental healing and forgiveness has to begin in the schools and through responsible parenting. I see a distinct lack in both and threads such as this one do nothing to help, in my view. I asked the author about that and he didn't answer, but I think I know the answer already. I think your input into this board is invaluable, because it does represent the view of many Jews. For that alone I might agree that this thread is not a complete waste of electrons. There is however another side to Israel's stance and that is that he who comes with a sword shall himself die of the sword and that has to be clear, too.
Be safe and let the hope die last.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe vasechek 8/1/06 11:15 PM
It's very easy to lay claim to this particular strip of land. So easy indeed that I am surprised the likes of Macedonia, Italy, France and Turkey haven't done that yet. You can't look to the past for proof of your right of ownership of the land - not this land. That is why, again, the good that this layer might be doing to remembering the past seems far outweighed by the damage its propagandist nature will likely cause to the future.
You might be right in that it would take a (Chinese?) empire conquering the Holy land to put out this fire (for a while at least).
Re: Nakba- Data and Thoughts jo_raedtaha76 8/2/06 1:40 AM
My posts were removed by the moderator.
Well, my first post was thanking Thameen for his effort and the second one was a reply for Myron.

May be the moderator thought that the second post is political and removed it,, ok I agree with him, but I really did not know why he deleted the first one!!!

Any way I had wrote some of my thoughts and visions regarding the future of the Middle East and would love to share it with you people, suggest a place where we can discuss it where moderators delete only impolite language!

Thanks,





Re: Nakba- Data and Thoughts Hanaq_Botas 8/2/06 6:51 AM
Hi jo_raedtaha76,

I remember, in one of your erased messages, you gave the name of your forefather's village, telling that it was not far from Thameen's placemark. Can you put a placemark, so we can discuss where the village exactly was? It would be sad if you or your children or grandchildren, when the day comes, would rebuild your house in the wrong village.

Hanaq
Re: Nakba- Where to Rebuild the House Myron_J 8/2/06 9:14 AM
Hi Hanaq....

I am imagining a smile on your face as you say:

It would be sad if you or your children or grandchildren, when the day comes, would rebuild your house in the wrong village

I am not sure what kind of smile though .

Tonight I will remember a destroyed house as well ..the Jewish Temple, whose two destructions (thanks to our misdeeds ) are commemorated on the tonight on the 9th day of the month of Av.

I remember..i ponder...i hope and pray for a different, more worthy future...

But to make that future happen calls for::
1. Looking into ourselves
2. Opening ourselves to each other
3. Understanding that we must build something NEW, in place of the old:
Your grandparents old house, the old Temple.

You see, I will not, can not and do not want to destroy anything to build something new.

Can we build something new and .not try to rebuild the old..not to relive the past..a past that is strife and rejectionism?

Our New Buldings will be based on a combination of our dedication to the past and our open hearts.
Re: Nakba- A Naive Israeli?? Jaydinator57 8/3/06 8:38 PM
I'm an American Jew that recently went to Israel. I had the good luck of leaving about the day before the rockets started coming in by the 100s. It seemed quiet and then exploded the day I left. Anyway, I would like to point out that while in Israel I saw many good signs as well as the bad signs for a day that Jews and Muslims could live together at peace. In one of the large cities of Israel, either Jerusalem or Tel Aviv-Yaffo, my group (all Jewish, the tour guides Israeli) went to a falaffle resteraunt. The people who ran the resteraunt were Palestinians, and they were very friendly and sociable in addition to serving the best falaffle I have ever eaten. In addition, my group went to a Bedouin encampent to spend the night. The Bedouins are a very polite and had great hospitality. Also, these Bedouins were concerned about the first Israeli that kidnapped. They worried it was a relative of their's, a Bedouin who had volunteered in the Israeli Army (Bedouins can volunteer to be in the IDF and Druze are required{the Druze wanted this} and the Bedouins are often employed as scouts due to their skills at Desert survival.). Anyway, I just wanted to show examples of Muslims living in harmony with Jews in Israel. Its not completely hopeless, though the rockets are not helping right now.
PS: I will soon be doing a post on my visit to Israel, eventually including pictures also.
Re: Nakba- A Naive Israeli?? vasechek 8/3/06 10:54 PM
Why is it such a secret that there are Arabs of Muslim faith who live in Israel (in predominantly Arab towns) work for the good of the country, some serve in the military, attend same schools and universities as Jews, work, have fun, run businesses, make friends with Jewish Israelis, practice their religion, take part in the government - lead normal lives? There is a ton of Arabic Israelis like that. They are above the hatred spoonfed by people trying to turn the general Arab population in the region (and far outside the region) into a puppets consumed by hate and religious zeal. Why would people allow themselves to be manipulated in this manner? Is it that difficult to realize what is being done to them, who is doing it and why?
Re: Nakba- recognizing it as a prerequisite Myron_J 8/3/06 11:12 PM
Jay,

Beyond Felafel, humus and coffee, Israeli Arabs also make fine doctors and alongside jewish doctors treat Israelis (Arabs, Jews and other minorities) as well as Non Israeli Palestinians looking for treatment in Israeli hospitals.

While i am sure it is not your intention, it seems a bit condescending admiring minorities for their culinary expertise.

But as Vayesachek mentions below, there are many other postive things happening...and it makes you wonder why the Israeli government has had such a hard time giving 100% equal treatment to these people caught between loyalties. (Israel's political system has always been discimatory of fringe populations...so it may not be chauvinsim per se).

I think the point of this thread for us, Israelis and Jews who are interested in cooperation and living together with Arabs is to point to the fact that it is not enough to be nice to Palestinians (those who are Israeli citizens and those who are not)...but we must:

1. recognize their feelings and pain

2. respect their traditions and culture and their right to express them

3. recognize their right to a state committed to living in cooperation with Israel and the other neighboring Arab states.

They on their part have much work to do as well in the our direction.

I write this after my daily walk around the parameter of my kibbutz, where outside the fence that surrounds the kibbutz I see their orchards, green and luscious, bordering our orchards, just as green. The beauty the eye sees sometimes hides much harsher realities of the people who harvest these trees.
Cartographic Vandalism TOPlanner 8/5/06 11:55 AM
The original poster described this as a "grand post". However, I see it more as an act of cartographic vandalism. It is now not possible to browse around Israel with the entire "Google Earth Community" layer turned on without having the map cluttered with numerous distracting placemarks. And while the poster makes pretences of having no political agenda, it is abundantly clear that this is not the case. Until such time as the original post is deleted (and I'm not holding my breath), my suggestion to remedy this situation is to turn off the "History Illustrated" sublayer (rather than the entire "Google Earth Community" layer) while browsing around Israel.
_________________________
"We hate your hate." - Broken Social Scene
Appropriateness of the Discussion/Placemarks TOPlanner 8/6/06 7:02 PM
To the moderator:

It is not my intent to make this issue personal, but I have to tell you that I take great exception to your previous post.

You describe this collection of placemarks as "excellent". Can you honestly expect to have any credibility as a neutral moderator when you have taken such a clearly biased position? Does Google condone this? Has Google now taken a position on the Mideast conflict?

Let me tell you how I describe the collection of placemarks: cartographic vandalism. The entire map of Israel is now almost totally obscured with the placemarks from this post. To suggest that they are only a collection of placemarks and that they are not politically charged or even slightly controversial is completely absurd. Each and every placemark links to an external website full of lies, propaganda and misinformation intended to discredit and villify Zionism and the State of Israel.

You say, "In here, we are not Israeli, Palestinian, Eastern, Middle Eastern, Western, or anything other than fellow Google Earth Community citizens..." If that were truly the case, do you honestly believe that this post with its provocative title "Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe" would even exist? I agree with you that the original poster set a relatively diplomatic tone, but to suggest that he doesn't have an ambitious political agenda would be incredibly naive.

You refer to the BBS rules. I have read these. The very first section states, "Participants shall not post any material likely to cause offence...". I can assure you that I as well as many others, a number of whom have previously spoken up, find this post incredibly offensive. As a result, it is not only likely to cause offence, it actually does cause offence. For this reason, I request that it be removed forthwith.
Re: Appropriateness of the Discussion/Placemarks Anonymous 8/6/06 7:24 PM
I, on the other hand, have found it an excellent and well-researched overview.

Ultimately, there will always be somebody who will find offence at pretty much every post.

The moderators have the difficult task of differentiating posts created in order to cause offence from those posts at which someone may take offence depending on their point of view, level of education and so on.

This post clearly falls into the latter category, and I congratulate the moderators' decision to let this valuable piece of historical research stand.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Myron_J 8/7/06 4:23 AM
As we continue to shed each others blood...
Haaretz Newspaper has an article about the story of some Shi'ite villages around the Israeli/Lebanese border leading up to the War of 1948.

Haaretz article


A careful read of this article will teach us about the stories of the villages, the townspeople and the attitudes of some of the Jewish pioneers of the time who were looking for a joint future.
Re: Appropriateness of the Discussion/Placemarks Kempster 8/7/06 9:38 AM
As moderators, we are neutral, and will not take a position on either side.

Esterrett described the collection as "excellent" because he felt the creator put a lot of time in his post and utilized Google Earth very well. The user included map overlays, photos, and links, along with many placemarks with descriptions. "The current situation in the region is off-topic, as is any other reply not directly related to this excellent collection of placemarks." The quote directly says the collection of placemarks are excellent, not the content or opinions.
Re: Appropriateness of the Discussion/Placemarks vasechek 8/7/06 3:21 PM
"The current situation in the region is off-topic, as is any other reply not directly related to this excellent collection of placemarks."

This excellent collection of placemarks reflects on the current situation and is interpreted as such very consistently by people on both sides of the fence. You truly have to be blind not to see that in some of the responses.
There are controversial and hotly contested half-truths to the original post and the info in the linked material. By letting the original thread stand, but suppressing the discussion (which cannot help but spill over to modern day) contesting the controversial statements made by the author, you, moderator, take the side - willingly or otherwise - of the author. Also, yours is the face of Google, Inc. in this microcosm.
It is impossible to separate this into a purely historical thread - the history is yet to be made. Can you say that this is not a transparent enough attempt to re-write history? Are you sure Google wants to be part of it?
Re: Appropriateness of the Discussion/Placemarks TOPlanner 8/7/06 3:55 PM
Ben (or is it his bong?):

Read a certain way, your post could be interpreted as saying that I have a narrow point of view and am uneducated. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Unfortunately, I can't agree with you on the issue of intent to cause offence. The BBS rules don't speak to that distinction and I don't believe that it can be reasonably inferred. In the final analysis, subject matter that is likely to cause offence is subject that is likely to cause offence, whether it was intended that way or not. I submit to you that one would have to be incredibly naive to think that such volatile subject matter as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as presented from one side's point of view is not likely to cause offence. Furthermore, the fact that you found the material informative does not diminish in any way from the fact that it is likely to cause offence to many others.
Re: Appropriateness of the Discussion/Placemarks TOPlanner 8/7/06 4:26 PM
I don't want to detract from the great work that you do as moderators, because I know that you all work very hard and have rightfully earned the gratitude of this community. That being said, however, I find the argument being made here ridiculous.

Anyone with a passing knowledge of cartography will know that maps have been used as a principal tool of propaganda throughout the ages, including in many geopolitical conflicts where they have been frequently used to great effect. The suggestion that the placemarks are "excellent" because they make good use of the technology available to the poster is completely absurd. This is like saying that "Triumph of the Will" is an "excellent" film because of it stunning cinematography and captivating narrative technique. Whatever its artistic merit, it remains a propaganda tool in the same way that this collection of placemarks remains a propaganda tool, whatever its cartographic or technological merit.

Again, I respectfully request that the original message along with the associated placemarks be deleted without further delay.
Re: Nakba- A Naive Israeli?? simon_pdavid 8/8/06 2:47 AM
Maybe because Arab Israelis have this wonderful thing called Israel citizenship, which allows them to vote.

if you treat people like citizens, they act like citizens, surprise surprise

However a few hundred metres east there are another 3 million Arabs who are rules by Israel but do not have Israeli citizenship. They are locked up in cantons which are virtually open air prisons, they don';t have freedom of movement, they don't have recourse to a civil legal system, and their property can be seized at any time. That is where the hatred comes from.

I must say however that even Arab Israelis are discriminated against :
- They are not allowed to live in the 93% of the state of Israel that is controlled by the Jewish National Fund.
- they are ineligible for a share of any of the funds that flow to Israel through zionist organisations
- 400 of their villages today are not officially recognised as towns by the interior ministry, meaning they don't get electricity. There are bedouin villages in the Negev still using oil lamps.
- they are not allowed to marry anyone from the Arab world, if they want to live together in Israel. Whereas a Jewish Israeli can bring their whole family to Israel as a matter of right
- They are not allowed to build or extend houses on their own land, without a permit (which is practice impossible to obtain). Result is that there is an effective cap on their population growth
- Arabs generate 35% of the Jerusalem tax base yet receive only 8% of the government spending on services
- The party that came third in the recent Israeli elections ran on a platform of expelling arab Israelis from the country

I could go on....
Re: Nakba- A Naive Israeli?? scottkarin 8/8/06 8:44 AM
Hey Mods - are you really going to let this political discussion continue in this thread? This has no place here on Google Earth - please close the thread.
Re: Nakba- A Naive Israeli?? fkhateeb 8/8/06 11:16 AM
He was simply stating facts. There is no rule in the GEC saying that "inconvienient facts" cannot be posted. Just because you do not like the truth of the situation does not mean that it is propoganda and ripe for deletion.
Re: Nakba- A Naive Israeli?? TOPlanner 8/8/06 6:11 PM
Ah yes, facts. Facts always tell the whole story. Facts never lie. Facts are never selectively marshalled in support of one side's point of view. We can all agree on the facts!
Re: Nakba- A Naive Israeli?? scottkarin 8/9/06 7:42 AM
Quote:

He was simply stating facts. There is no rule in the GEC saying that "inconvienient facts" cannot be posted. Just because you do not like the truth of the situation does not mean that it is propoganda and ripe for deletion.



I didn't ask that the placemarks be removed, I asked that the discussion be closed because it is not in reference to the placemarks - but instead it is openly political.

Second, I wrote nothing about the "situation", so your accusation that I "do not like the truth of the situation" is simply false. You don't know anything about me or how I feel about what is going on over there. Please don't put words in my mouth, and I won't put them in yours.

Third, where did I write that it is "propaganda" and "ripe for deletion"? Did you perhaps reply to the wrong post? If so, please be more careful - I don't appreciate being singled out by you with these accusations whether it was intentional or accidental.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe atomwatch 8/9/06 11:34 PM
Very interesting and informative material. A real eye-opener.
Re: Nakba- A Naive Israeli?? epl18 8/10/06 1:47 AM
Quote:

Maybe because Arab Israelis have this wonderful thing called Israel citizenship, which allows them to vote.

I must say however that even Arab Israelis are discriminated against :
- They are not allowed to live in the 93% of the state of Israel that is controlled by the Jewish National Fund.
- they are ineligible for a share of any of the funds that flow to Israel through zionist organisations
- 400 of their villages today are not officially recognised as towns by the interior ministry, meaning they don't get electricity. There are bedouin villages in the Negev still using oil lamps.
- they are not allowed to marry anyone from the Arab world, if they want to live together in Israel. Whereas a Jewish Israeli can bring their whole family to Israel as a matter of right
- They are not allowed to build or extend houses on their own land, without a permit (which is practice impossible to obtain). Result is that there is an effective cap on their population growth
- Arabs generate 35% of the Jerusalem tax base yet receive only 8% of the government spending on services
- The party that came third in the recent Israeli elections ran on a platform of expelling arab Israelis from the country

I could go on....




unfortunately, arabs routinely break the rules, building houses and claiming land whenever they want. also, these placemarks are inaccurate (and many are indeed jewish towns that were kicked out to give their land to the arabs) after the redoing of israel several months ago. This post should be deleted due to its biased and inaccurate nature. and Mods, please get rid of this political discussion.
-epl18
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