Categories: I found a bug! : Text Chat : Mobile Device :

Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android

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Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android colAf 5/15/13 4:22 PM
I got, additional to my GMail account, two other Jabber/XMPP accounts. One at Jabber.org and one at GMX.net. These accounts I normally use with the Jabber client software Pidgin ( http://pidgin.im ).

Before some time I added the Jabber.org and the GMX account as chat-contacts to my GMail accuont. With the Talk-App I was able to chat with both accounts and also to add more non GMail accounts (of my friends) from different Jabber/XMPP servers like jabber.ccc.de

Using the new Hangsouts-App (version 1.0.0.1, released today, 15th May 2013) that doesn't seems to be working anymore! In my Pidgin client on my notebook (Pidgin) using my other Jabber accounts (Jabber.org and GMX.net) the GMail account appears as online as soon as I start Hangouts. But messages send from Pidgin don't arrive (without any error coming back). I can receive the messages only if I login to https://gmail.com and open the chat area.

On the other hand in the Hangouts App the Jabber contacts aren't listed any more (as they used to be in Talk) and if I try to add a Jabber contact Hangsouts only offers me to send an email. But specially for pure Jabber accounts like Jabber.org and many other servers offer, this doesn't makes sense because there's no email address. And to send an invitation is actually not what I wan't, because I wan't to chat with the Jabber account.

Please fix this! Without the XMPP/Jabber federation feature Google describes here is broken.
https://support.google.com/a/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=34143
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android mbaltozer 5/15/13 4:44 PM
GOOGLE THINKS THEY ARE FACEBOOK NOW.

Please direct all questions/complaints on the correct facebook help forum. Thank you.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android KeithR 5/16/13 3:14 AM
@colAf, I'll make sure the team notices your report.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android colAf 5/16/13 4:20 AM
Looks like Hangouts version 1.0.1.678536 (released 16th May 2013) still doesn't fixes this problem.


I heard rumors, Google is dropping XMPP/Jabber support...
http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/15/4318830/inside-hangouts-googles-big-fix-for-its-messaging-mess
Quote: With Hangouts, Singhal says Google had to make the difficult decision to drop the very "open" XMPP standard that it helped pioneer.
I'm working with XMPP technologies and I don't think there's a technical reason not to include an XMPP adapter into their server software. It may be some work but it won't crash their software architecture! I think this is a political decision!

I like Google services because (in the past) Google didn't tried to fence me into their garden. For example Google always gave me the possibility to get my E-Mails via IMAP or POP3. Microsofts Hotmail didn't.

About XMPP/Jabber it's the similar: Google didn't forced me or my friends to use a Google account to chat with Google users.

If this changes it's a major anti-feature which destroys the freedom I used to have when using Google products!!!

If that happends, I will go back to my Jabber accounts which federate with other Jabber-Servers without restrictions. And I will stop suggesting GoogleChat to friends because it won't enable them to chat with me using my Jabber accounts any more...
Maybe other people will do the same. But I don't really think this would stop Google from getting the market share they want for Hangouts. BUT it will decrease their image as a company which is not completely bad. Mainly, because people who think about a company being fair or bad with their customers, mainly exists in the same people's heads which think about stuff like XMPP and Jabber!

So, I really hope this is just a bug!
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android KeithR 5/16/13 4:31 AM
Does XMPP support voice and video?
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android colAf 5/16/13 4:46 AM
Yes, XMPP has extensions (called Jingle) for that. Those are supported by Pidgin ( http://pidgin.im ) for example.

Actually, those extensions where introduced by Google.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingle_%28protocol%29

But that's not the point for me. What I use on all of my devices at all the time is the basic chat feature. And that's what made messengers like WhatsApp or ICQ poplar!!!
Video and audio chat I use sometimes when I wan't to have a long conversation and I can't meet the person in real life. But the basic chat is what I have ALWAYS RUNNING and what I also use to tell people: Hey I want to have a long conversation with you. If you have time, can you start your Skype / Hangouts / TeamSpeak or anything else.

The basic chat is the feature I'm worrying about. And the basic chat feature to other Jabber-/XMPP-Servers is what Google doesn't supports anymore in Hangouts!
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android v6ak 5/16/13 5:29 AM
I am not sure what *exactly* disabling XMPP means. There are two things associated with XMPP:
1. A client can connect with XMPP to provider's server. (Client-to-server XMPP, c2s.)
2. An user can chat with other user at other provider's server. (Server-to-server XMPP, s2s.)

Many providers (e.g. Jabbim) support both of them, but not all of them. Facebook has never supported s2s, but it supports c2s.

Google used to support both of them. However, Google will not do so. It may mean one of following:
a) Google will support c2s, but not s2s
b) Google will support s2s, but not c2s
c) Google will support neither s2s nor c2s

I don't know which one is true. I hope Google will stay supporting s2s.

Regards,
Vít Šesták 'v6ak'
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android colAf 5/16/13 5:44 AM
Google stopped supporting s2s (also called servers federation).

I did a little testing and currently Hangout users don't get messages from non-Google users (also can't send messages to non-Google users). If you're logged into https://gmail.com you can still chat with non-Google users but it sounds like Google will stop that too.

At the moment the s2c stuff (login with Pidgin into GoogleTalk) still works. And if you use a Google account you can also send messages to Hangouts users. But this is not an important feature! Facebook and Microsoft-Messenger offer similar functionality with XMPP, but the important part is s2s (federation with other XMPP servers).
https://developers.facebook.com/docs/chat/
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/live/hh826554.aspx
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android colAf 5/16/13 5:59 AM
More information:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5714557

Maybe related:
http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/15/4334242/larry-page-to-tech-world-being-negative-is-not-how-we-make-progress
Seems like Google wants to do a little war with Microsoft. And XMPP/Jabber gets collateral damage by that...
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android mbaltozer 5/16/13 12:13 PM
Anyone else use GVMax? Basically, it works like this....

You have Google Voice send you email notification of SMS. Setup filter to forward the email to GVMax (and delete the email, if you wish). GVMax sends (through a bot) to your Google Talk. You can reply to that bot to send SMS back.

I've loved this setup for a while. It was a nice way to combine google voice into chat, and have the option to use it on desktop or mobile. Rumor had it that Hangouts would integrate GV on its own. That rumor was wrong, and the workaround will no longer work. Very disappointing. Hangouts is a crippled piece of GARBAGE.

Is it safe to assume that the nearly 10 year old Google Talk Windows client (that has never been updated, but still works great) will soon quit working? It's like the only stand alone app google ever made. I will seriously miss it if it goes. Such a simple, lightweight, stand alone app that just works.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android Rolf Braun 5/16/13 7:39 PM
Please restore this functionality tout de suite. I am already going to recommend to my friends that they not upgrade to or use Hangouts until this is fixed. I've historically relied on the ability to use outside accounts to talk to Google users, and I'm uninclined to also stay logged into my Google account from everywhere to talk to a handful of people.

Instead I'll probably just use Facebook, which has the same problem but at least didn't destroy functionality that existed previously. You don't get any points for being "no worse than Facebook" -- especially anything to do with Google+. Want me to use and recommend your services? Then make them better than what everyone else is already using. Federated chat was compelling because it promises a future of having to leave fewer chat apps and connections open. Take the high ground and bring it back.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android marevalo 5/17/13 1:42 AM
At this point I can send messages from Hangouts to a federated server (hosted in hosted.im) but I cannot get any response... Has it changed ? Is Google trying to fix it ?

And yes, without S2S XMPP federation is another good Google service that bites the dust (I'm still mourning Google Reader).
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android colAf 5/17/13 4:46 AM
A new article which concludes the current informations pretty well:
http://windowspbx.blogspot.de/2013/05/hangouts-wont-hangout-with-other.html
ToniCipriani 5/17/13 8:23 AM <This message has been deleted.>
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android ToniCipriani 5/17/13 8:24 AM
Thanks for the article, sums it up nicely about federation. But what about XMPP clients, like Pidgin?

I hope Google will come out and eventually say that outright when, so when they are ready to cut me off, I'll be ready to cut them too.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android gfactor 5/17/13 12:53 PM
The Google Talk for Developers page seems pretty clear. As of today, there's an extra note over the opening paragraph. It says:


Note: We announced a new communications product, Hangouts, in May 2013. Hangouts will replace Google Talk and does not support XMPP. The information in this Developer's Guide pertains only to Google Talk.

https://developers.google.com/talk/

I am not happy that Google is dropping support for XMPP in the new Hangouts. I can only hope they'll change their minds later and work on integrating XMPP once their initial roll out and bug fixes are complete.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android zorion 5/19/13 7:58 AM
Gtalk was my favorite IM. I had an xmpp bot working for me and my friends.
I am very disappointed.
I don't like hangouts (yet) so I'll probably use other IMs. Line or WhatsApp are quite similar to this one.
I don't understand this decision and I hope Google will reconsider it.
With XMPP hangouts could compete against Line or WhatsApp.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android colAf 5/19/13 11:35 AM
@zorion

Just create an account at www.jabber.org or www.swissjabber.ch or choose any provider from here:
http://xmpp.net/
With one of those you can chat with everyone at another jabber/xmpp server.

As client app you can use Xabber or Beem or www.Pidgin.im or use any softwar listed here:
http://xmpp.org/xmpp-software/clients/

Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android phearone 5/20/13 12:41 PM
having the exact same issue: users sending messages through xmpp not arriving anymore to Hangouts users.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android Colin Stagner 5/20/13 1:09 PM
For the moment, XMPP s2s federation appears to be available via the GMail Talk interface and via 3rd party clients such as Pidgin. It is not possible to interact with non-Google accounts via the new Android Hangouts app, however.

I operate a number of hosted services for a small but active community. We make extensive use of XMPP for server monitoring and for real-time communication with our user base. Since there is no way for an automated service to send or receive Hangouts messages and/or presence, it is not possible to migrate any of these services to Hangouts. This is less of a "Hangout" and more of a "Headache" for me as I try to find an alternative solution for all of my users. I also use XMPP on a daily basis for instant messaging and MUCs. Many of my contacts are Google users, but some of them are not, and I don't see what's wrong with being able to get them all in one place.

Google seems to have developed an institutional obsession with controlling the user experience down to the pixel level. Want to use G+? Your choices are the Google web interface or Google's mobile apps. The RESTful API is some kind of very expensive joke. A wide variety of new Google features such as voice search or OCR-based language translation are only available in Chrome, despite little technical barrier to a cross-platform implementation.

If anyone from Google is here, can you answer:
* What is going to happen to the c2s and s2s XMPP interfaces?
* Will IMAP be next on the chopping block?
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android v6ak 5/20/13 1:18 PM
It is rather a Google Hangover...
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android phearone 5/20/13 1:29 PM
Yep, just about the same headache on my side. I have started exploring the G+/Hangouts API for an alternative way of sending/receiving chat messages to Hangouts users, but it seems this is currently only possible for a user through the Hangouts UI within an app inside a Hangouts web window. You can get the contact list through G+ API, but that's about as far as you'll get. Sending chat messages without the Hangouts UI inside a web window seems more like a hack for now. Unless someone knows if an official API is in the pipe ?
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android mbaltozer 5/20/13 1:32 PM
It's a lost cause. I opened a jabber.org account. Screw this.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android Colin Stagner 5/20/13 1:52 PM
This does me exactly zero good on a headless server with no graphical environment.

I wouldn't mind using a 3rd party service for my c2s—we have our own anyway—but federation with Hangouts is a must-have. "Google Hangover," indeed!
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android liljenstolpe 5/20/13 6:03 PM
Ok, I can also confirm, on both jabber.org (as indicated before), and my own ejabberd server.  This is really a step backwards.  As of now I'm pulling my google IM from my contact list, and telling folks to use my other xmpp servers.  I CAN'T be wedded to a single provider, and managing multiple applications for the same purpose is a PITA.  I'm outa here...  So long, and thanks for all the fish...

Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android erlend_sh 5/21/13 5:46 AM
I've been happily using Google Talk (Gmail) for all my communication needs, in great part thanks to the Jaconda.im service. This service is going to be effectively worthless now, and so is Hangouts. I'm not gonna demand that anyone who wants to talk to me, be it personal or business, needs a Google account.

If Google chooses to move away from openness, I'll have no qualms about moving away from Google.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) 5/21/13 7:52 AM
You can still use the Google Talk XMPP, it's the Hangouts application that uses a different protocol, XMPP servers for Google Talk are still up and running. I wonder if they will keep that on? It will be pretty confusing, may look like the same service but it's two different services.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android mbaltozer 5/21/13 8:12 AM
It's next on the chopping block, nuna. And there will likely be no warning when they drop it. Because that's what "open" companies do.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) 5/21/13 8:15 AM
Actually, google has been warning when they chop services. So I'd expect them to chop, but warning beforehand.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android mbaltozer 5/21/13 8:55 AM
They already did. Just didn't say when.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) 5/21/13 9:16 AM
Where did they say they are going to shut down the Google Talk XMPP servers? So far, I've only found annoucements on the official software client dropping XMPP support.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android mbaltozer 5/21/13 9:29 AM
I'm pretty sure I saw it mentioned in one of these threads. Hopefully I'm wrong. I'll link to it if I can find it.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android B Galliart 5/21/13 4:02 PM
This move makes a (to quote Larry Page) "really sad" statement about Google.  At Google I/O, he talked about Google's offer to interoperate "forever": http://youtu.be/AfK8h73bb-o?t=2m48s

Oddly enough, Google already had another conference talk plan the same exact day how they are dropping all support for XMPP with Google+ Hangouts.  Not only was XMPP already the basis of Google Talk, it was also stated by Google so-called "Tech Lead, Google Realtime Communications" as being a "noteworthy technical point" regarding Google+ Hangout as well as stated here:
http://juberti.blogspot.com/2011/06/announcing-google-hangouts.html

At the time I am writing this, the top ranked reply to this post is that Google thinks they are now Facebook.  The ironic thing about this statement is Facebook continues to support XMPP: https://developers.facebook.com/docs/chat/

Google is now actually *WORSE* than Facebook.  It used to be that Google would issue statements warning users that Facebook lacked interoperability and the ability of users to control their own information.  One such warning was: "
Hold on a second. Are you super sure you want to import your contact information for your friends into a service that won’t let you get it out?"

Ironically, Google's own warnings about Facebook now more apply to Google+ than to Facebook.  With Facebook, you can choose which software you use to chat with.  And Google+ which promoted itself on being open no longer lets you choose.  There remains the option to choose more than one web browser provided the Hangout plugin works with the browser, operating system and machine architecture.   This is still far from the open environment which will work with the nearly infinite number of possibilities that Facebook's XMPP chat will work with.  For the most part, Google's support of IM interoperability is now no better than that of Skype while not having the advantage of the same user base size that Skype has!

This move also goes against Google's statement of company philosophy.  This isn't about focus on the user which is the first point Google makes in it's "ten things we know to be true."  The case for open communication being part of focus on the user is made here: https://developers.google.com/talk/open_communications

This isn't about doing one thing really, really well.  As I already stated, this move puts Google+ at a disadvantage to Facebook and Skype as Hangouts does not have the user adoption of either and doesn't extend to third party clients the same way that Facebook chat does.

This isn't about democracy on the web given the number of companies that have adopted XMPP and open federation.

This isn't about being able to make money without doing evil.  The promises being open and interoperating forever have been broken.  It is clear that we can't even trust Larry Page regarding the direction that the company is actually going in.

What is even worse, is this type of move by Google isn't the first time:

This isn't the first time Google has dismissed it's promise of promoting use of free open standards which interoperate.  After several years of doing a pathetic job of promoting webm video format (does it even work with chrome on android yet??), Google is now backing DRM in HTML5.

This isn't the first time Google has violated user trust to kill one product in favor of a new "better" one which fails to provide the same full set of features.  Google had the option with Google Video to buy movies to "keep."  Later, as part of the merger with YouTube, Google removed access to the movies purchased via Google Video.  Now Google is trying to claim that movies can one again by purchased to so-called "keep" via the Google Play store.  However, Google has made no attempt to restore access to the movies it previously sold through Google Video.

And this isn't the first time Google has stabbed the technical community for using what Google later considers a "niche" product or feature.  Recently Google Reader made headlines as being popular among specific groups and still placed on the chopping block by Google.

However, this seems to me the first time Google has gone as far as to have Larry Page declare that it's own actions it will be announcing the same exact day is "really sad."  That seems to me to be an incredible new low for Google and for that reason, I also consider it to be really sad.

Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android B Galliart 5/21/13 4:06 PM
The statement from Google that Hangouts will replace Google Talk is available here:
https://developers.google.com/talk/

It states:
"Note: We announced a new communications product, Hangouts, in May 2013. Hangouts will replace Google Talk and does not support XMPP. The information in this Developer's Guide pertains only to Google Talk."

The wording of "will replace" suggests that Google Talk will be discontinued.

Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) 5/21/13 9:55 PM
Google Talk, the software. This does not mean explicitly that they are going to discontinue Google's XMPP servers.

Hangout (software) is effectively a replacement to Google Talk (software). The question, which I still didn't see answered, is whether they are planning anything explicitly about Google's XMPP servers.
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) 5/21/13 9:58 PM <This message has been deleted.>
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android mbaltozer 5/22/13 10:33 AM
B Galliart: You said it best. Personally, I lack the patience to type out a response like that. Good job!
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android Josh Grebe 5/24/13 9:11 AM
Google embraced openness long enough to build their chat platform's popularity, now they are filling the moat and raising the draw bridge. It reads clearly to me that they are phasing out Google Talk and replacing it with Hangouts, and that XMPP (and with it, federation) is a thing of the past.
Re: Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android Nekmo com 5/27/13 12:16 PM
Good Bye Google.
Jabber/XMPP federation broken in new Hangouts app for Android Jörg Wöhrle 5/28/13 9:01 PM
Google, this is a real bad, disappointing and wrong move!
Bachi76 5/30/13 4:49 AM <This message has been deleted.>
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