|Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/20/11 1:56 AM|
I have read the FAQs and checked for similar issues: YES
My site's URL (web address) is:
Description (including timeline of any changes made):
We have had very sudden drop in ranking on our website and cant figure out what we have might have done to loose our ranking... we have always stuck to google guidelines... and have people writing original content for us....
Has anyone else had a drop in ranking on the 17th of January?
This is a major blow and need to find out why....
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||seo101||1/20/11 2:00 AM|
Google does 200-400 algoirthm changes a year, so yes there was probably an update on the 17th
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/20/11 2:07 AM|
does it need an algorithm update to let a site tank in the index? No!
How, no URL at hand ...
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/20/11 2:16 AM|
the website is www.littletravellers.com
I could understand some sinking but in keywords where we were on page 1, now nowhere to be seen...
all i need is to understand what we have done to make sure we dont do it again as i believe we have not broken any google guidelines.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/20/11 2:20 AM|
so does that mean google does update on its algoirthm every day??
How would i find out what we might have done to upset googlebot?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/20/11 2:28 AM|
I'd say your site looks like what we call a "thin affiliate"?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/20/11 2:58 AM|
a "thin affiliate"?
The all travel industry works on affiliate schemes... as a matter of fact the all web work on affiliate...
We have done all content we research and we employ experienced travel writers....
Would love to know how you make your money if not via affiliate or google adsence (other form of affiliate)?? Of course this one is allowed by the mighty god google!
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/20/11 3:16 AM|
>>> as a matter of fact the all web work on affiliateWhat about www*amazon*com ... are they affiliates too??
I'm an SEO consultant (working mostly for online businesses that are not affiliates)
Who said it's forbidden? On the other hand - who said such things must rank well or must rank well forever?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/20/11 3:21 AM|
I have had a look at your website www.newdy.org and cannot say it is exactly a top quality website with a lot of content?
Maybe you can correct me but arent you making money from affiliate or paid advertising without actually having any original content?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/20/11 3:37 AM|
>>>What about www*amazon*com ... are they affiliates too??Well amazon lives off other people selling thier product and have massive team of people creating new ways of affiliate schemes?
lets make an example www*travelsupermarket*com. This is entirely based on affiliate. This site does not produce anything they just make money from affiliates from all aspects like car hire, hotels, holidays etc...
Would'nt you call this a "thin affilaite" as they do not have any own or original content?
Of course adsence is an affiliate program where google is paying people for sending visitors to the advertisers on google adwords. We do not use adsence as from my opinion it does not bring anyhting to the visitor and look terribe on the websites. A lot of the time the adsence ads are not related to the subject of the page. However maybe this is our mistake as if we use adence then maybe google would be more relaxed about our affiliate schemes.
Maybe JohnMu should voice his opinion of thin affiliate and how this might effect ranking?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/20/11 5:01 AM|
>>> Maybe you can correct me but arent youHave you seen Adsense or affiliate code on my site? You didn't bother to look, right? It's a free directory without any ads, I don't make a single cent with it.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/20/11 5:25 AM|
Sorry are you trying to tell me that you get nothing from this for example
autovermietung malaga - URL: http://www*rentspain*com/ - Kat: Laender-Reisen
Im assuming you have a link on your index page only because you like the domain name or name of the company? What other reason there may be for you having that link on your index page?
Can you see any ads on our index apart the 2 banners acually advertising very good holiday companies? And yes it is an affiliate but would it make any different if they pay on montly flat fee?
And the banner for partystrip? Probably again just because you like it?
From my point of view there is no difference between affiliate payment or get paid for advertising. For banner advertising one gets paid per month flat fee, per impressions or per click. In affiliate you actually get paid per results.
I dont think google is getting it right at the moment. A purposly make websites with article content gets in the front of websites with real content and hard work. There are many example but im just looking at results from my field. As example http://www*familyholidayideas*com/top-beach-holiday-destinations.php*
Now this is what i call thin affiliate yet they are on the page 1 and 2???
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/20/11 6:12 AM|
>>> Sorry are you trying to tell me that you get nothing from this for exampleThat's the link to the last site that submitted it's URL to my directory, what do I have to do with them? ... I mean, are you new to the internet or what?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/20/11 6:39 AM|
and is that including the banner?
To run a directory anyone can do now days.. free open source script, registration of domain and i can be off in a day but actually create a webiste with usefull info and put the research into in is a little more difficult. dont you think?
Would you perhaps explain me why would thin affiliate website like i have mentioned rank well altought it does any have any proper content and is crated only to target certain keywords?
It also seems to me that normally the giants like tripadvisor and others hog the most of the top 10 spots altohught they are not really offering real information and as we know a lot of the times the reviews are not correct.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/20/11 6:47 AM|
>>> actually create a webiste with usefull info and put theI'm not in the business of creating websites, I already said that.
Question is for how long they will remain on their SERP positions ... as you see from your own example a site like this could tank anytime. Also a "thin affiliate" could have good rankings and retain them in case it's popular enough for some reason. Popularity could even be faked to some extent by buying a lot of links from all over the place, that's true.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/20/11 7:45 AM|
Anyway after this lengthy discussion im no close to actually work out why this has happened and what to do to change it and prevent it in the future.
It seesm to me that now days you do not have a chance against giants like tripadvisor or expedia although they don’t have the content any better sometimes worst it is purely down to the fact that they spend more money on adwords and at the end of the day google needs their money.
I dont think google should rely purely on the machine to recognise which website might give a better info for the user but they should put a human aspect into it.
Im just amazed that after 2 years of building content and doing all im suppose to do in one blow it is all gone and the only choice might be to pay s... loads for adwords (maybe thats googles point)
If you have any other ideas why this might have happened im will be glad to hear it but i do not agree with your explanation that we might be a "thin affiliate" site.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||JohnMu||1/20/11 3:11 PM|
Hi Alex and welcome to the forum!
Overall, I'd certainly tend to listen to Luzie, he has a good eye for the bigger picture and quite a lot of experience.
Looking through your site, I would agree that it's not a typical thin-affiliate site; you have some great concepts in there, and from a quick glance, some interesting content. Looking a bit more, I do however also see places where it's a bit thin -- Last year, I took the family to Dublin for a visit, so I thought I'd check out what I might have missed on your site. Clicking on the links under "Things to do with kids in Dublin," half of them take me to the homepage of Attractiontix, which is a bit odd -- why send me to a generic affiliate homepage when I'm looking for details? Going back & clicking around on your site, this seems to happen quite frequently; maybe it's just a technical quirk or a bad time to visit, it's hard for me to say. Looking at the Vienna Zoo (another great place), I tried your flights-link on the bottom -- alas, it points to a "Bad Request" error page. Milano was also worth a visit recently, alas your site has no information available, nor does Finland... at that point, I start to wonder what I've been doing wrong when it comes to taking my family on trips in Europe :-). I also start to worry about the other parts of your site and particularly, what users might think when they experience the same (but again, given your comments, I assume it might just be bad timing).
One thing that is very important to us with affiliate-oriented sites is that the site provides enough unique and compelling content of its own, that it would stand on its own feet if the affiliate content were removed. While I really like the ideas & layout of your site, I wonder how much of that would be there without the matching affiliate content/offers, and in the cases where I did find more information on the external links, it seemed that those sites (eg DoSomethingDifferent) appeared to offer better - at least more - content than your site showed me. When our algorithms run into situations like that, they try to balance the desire to show all content (all sites with similar offers) with the interests of users, who frequently want to find a real variety in the search results. In those cases, our algorithms generally tend to prefer sites that are either the original source (saving the user time on clicking through) or sites that have really strong content. So this is not a matter of someone manually deciding that your site is a "thin-affiliate," it's really just a matter of how our algorithms work.
In the case of your site, I can see that with appropriate work, our algorithms will possibly view it differently over time. Given the enthusiasm shown here in this thread, I'm pretty confident that if I were to check back in a month or so, I'd be pretty happy with everything I see. Yes, it's hard in the online travel market, but given a nice niche and passionate webmasters (and users!), it's not impossible either :-).
Hope it helps!
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/21/11 2:42 AM|
Much appreciate your reply. I would listen to Luzie however he has not offered any other explanation apart we are a thin affliate site which i strongly disagree with.
Yes i agree some things might not work exactly and some thing might be missing for the moment but it all comes down to time and money.
It is slight catch 22 there is you dont make money you cannot spend money to make the site better and more informative. In order to do that we are employing experienced travel writers with children who have a good idea what might family want on thier holiday. We research family holiday and hotels are recommend only a few to the users. Of course these are picked from affiliate programs and this is the only way to make living.
What i cant understand is that a real thin affiliate site are still up there still raking fairly well and most probably making money off google adsence on the other hand we have put a lot of effort, time and not to forget money into this but some machine decides that this website is not good for user at all and removes it from SERP?
Also what i dont understand we have just been given PR2 (from PR1). I know it is not a clear indicator for ranking but why would google add PR and demote us from result?
in regards to your question DoSomethingDifferen offer better info yes of course they do in terms of things to do however they only offer this things whwre they will get paid from the provider (ie. in principal again affiliate scheme). In many cases we offer not only those things but others where there is no affiliate scheme a link directly to the attractions.
We are provide them holidays and hotels which again we hand pick depending on where it is, what facilities it has etc...
We of course have xml feeds of hotels however these are only filtered down to family hotels only which is normally stated by the hotel themselves.
What i would really like from google to let me know why has this happened as , as far i know and im aware of i have not broken any guidelines for to be more or less removed from SERP. This way i can fix it and make sure im doing it better next time.
Hope you might be able to share a light on this
PS: "I can see that with appropriate work, our algorithms will possibly view it differently over time"- i just hope this will be sooner than later as i do have 2 little mouths to feed as well and lets face it without the search results on google one cant make it nowdays. If no result then no other option that give it up and do something different. This however will be loss for the users im sure we can agree on it.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/21/11 4:59 AM|
>>> and lets face it without the search resultsI've always said that it's far too dangerous for a business to wholly depend on organic search traffic as long as it doesn't have something very special and unique to offer, and even if I had to admit that your content may be better than I first thought (which I still don't), that's just not the case here.
I can not agree ^^ The whole online hotel industry is so incredibly huge that probably not a dozen users would even notice any change if one, ten or a hundred sites like yours vanished from the index overnight, face it, I said that, you're moving on very dangerous ground.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/21/11 5:43 AM|
>>>even if I had to admit that your content may be better than I first thought (which I still don't)Well what can i say it is a matter of opinion what might or might not be good content but my website definitely has more original content than yours. As mentioned i can have a directory like your up and running in a day for free but to have the vision and knowhow to actually have all affiliates, all hotels and get someone to design it and program it is little more expensive and time consuming.
I have never said the content is top notch but it is a lot better compare the websites i have mentioned previously yet the mighty god google cannot see it and thts why i think considering they are now worth 220 billion dollars they should actually put a human aspect into google to make is real. A machine is only doing what they tell the machine to do (unless of course they have something what can think for itsself)
Yes i agree the hotel industry is huge and we are not only aiming on hotels but holidays, attractions and anything to do with family holidays.
And yet again it comes down to money. The only other way if no result on organic google is google adwords. We are not on a large budget as some of large companies might be and do not have 1000's to spend each month for adwords.
Other options? Yahoo? Yes but they i my opinion get about 1% of the global searches regardless what anyone says... we can all see it on our stats...
Bing?.. even less
Banner advertising per impression? hmmm... the conversion rate is next to nothing for loads of money.
lastly paper advertising... hmmm let me think about this one... IT DOES NOT WORK been there done that and again the conversion rate it next to nothing.
it is very unfortunate that google has this power. Sometimes it seems to me that they feel invisible and to be honest dictate to everyone how they should behave and if they dont they chop them off. Perhaps it might be good idea that if google does chop someone off just to let them know what they have done and how to improve? Isnt google aiming for better quality? It is the same as if you have people working for you. The only way to improve quality is to tell them what they have done wrong and make sure they improve.
Anyone else would like to comment on subject?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/21/11 5:55 AM|
>>> however he has not offered any otherMake that an affiliate site skipping "thin", that's still enough of an explanation. Look at your competition: for a typical search query like http://www.google.com/search?q=%22New+York+City+hotels%22 you'd find one-and-a-half million results on the SERPs - do you think you could compete with Hilton and Marriott and hotel*com, each of them pouring millions into online marketing? I don't believe so. Any minor improvement in rankings for these competitors of yours could proof deadly for your site.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/21/11 5:57 AM|
One thing i would like to add
Does anyone else know any other global company which would have i believe 80% monopoly on the market?
If there would be there will be serious questions asked! Like 2 large airline companies cannot join forces as this would not be good for a customer!
With google it seems no one is asking any questions yes they have total control over the internet market and if anyone say "i do not like the way it is run" then the only answer you might get is "Well if you dont like it them lamp it"
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/21/11 5:57 AM|
>>> definitely has more original content than yoursThat doesn't help you the least. I'm far from even thinking to try to live of that, my job is a completely different one. My site is not in discussion here, it's nothing but a former hobby of mine, and I set it up to toy around with PERL and MySQL.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/21/11 6:10 AM|
I would never dream of aiming for that kind of keyword!
Im aiming for more realistic like New York City family hotels which has a lot less results and have some chance but still aiming for new york in any kind of key word is impossible task.
I have my feet firmly on the ground and know what is or is not possible/achievable.
I have made this point earlier! How can anyone compete with large companies like expedia, hotels.com, hotelclub and others yes all of these mentioned have affiliates and need affiliates to make money. Obviously only a proportion of the income but if they dont make money via affiliates why would they do it???
And actually hotels.com and expedia are the same company and you will find that the write ups for their hotels are a lot of the times the same but they still rank rather very well for both??? strange its it? Some might say it is duplicated content? But i don’t think google sees it this way?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||JohnMu||1/21/11 6:10 AM|
In a case like this, it's not a matter of tweaking a few small things and it's not a matter of Google deciding that this might be a "thin affiliate" site -- it's really more about the bigger picture.
You mentioned that you do not have a large budget to personally be able to visit all those locations -- that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't have awesome content. Think about your users -- if you have regular users (and I'd be surprised if you didn't), then can't they help there as well?
A few years ago, the owner of TravellersPoint.com posted about similar problems with his site: http://groups.google.com/group/google_webmaster_help-indexing/browse_thread/thread/f0ad62c3fe6e9d33/ . I don't know in detail what all he has done, but looking at Google Ad Planner's charts at https://www.google.com/adplanner/planning/site_profile?hl=en#siteDetails?identifier=http://www.travellerspoint.com/&lp=true shows that he's now getting lots and lots of visitors every day. His site is filled with great advice, and instead of writing it all himself, he works extremely hard with his community of users to help them to create awesome content.
This is obviously not something that happens overnight, but by being very creative, enthusiastic and passionate about what you're doing, there are almost always ways to take great ideas and turn them into reality. There's no trick or shortcut to having an awesome site, and you don't get there by copying something that someone has done (with a giant budget, that you might not have), but as I mentioned above, it's not impossible to turn things around.
To get started, I'd strongly recommend not focusing on tiny details of your existing site, but rather to take a step back and think about ways that you could turn it into something that's significantly different than the other sites out there now. Sometimes that's possible with small changes, sometimes that requires taking existing concepts and reusing them in completely different ways.
Hope it helps!
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/21/11 7:02 AM|
Now this is a good one on the thread posted by the travellerspoint i have clicked on it and this came up
Google Accounts: Unable to access a Google product
If you've been redirected to this page from a particular product, it means that your access to this product has been suspended. Read on for more information.
Your access to this Google product has been suspended because of a perceived violation of either the Google Terms of Service or product-specific Terms of Service. For specific product guidelines, please visit the homepage of each Google product you're interested in for a link to its Terms of Service.
Google reserves the right to:
* Disable an account for investigation.
* Suspend a Google Account user from accessing a particular product or the entire Google Accounts system, if the Terms of Service or product-specific policies are violated.
* Terminate an account at any time, for any reason, with or without notice.
Obviously this was something what may have slightly upset the mighty god!
I see your point but we are back to the old catch 22 when you cant have more visitors unless you are high on google. We of course accommodate other peoples views and we are more than happy for them to submit review and their point and would be more than happy for other people to suggest new places.
With review it is a tricky one as again it is one persons opinion and as we know from the recent issue on tripadvisor the review posted may be just to harm competitor and have massive consequences for the business involved in the bad review although again it is only one person opinion and in many cases it may have been the competitors who post it is in the first place and as it is more or less anonymus then they is no way of finding out... well there is a way who posted it and im sure tripadvisor has mean of tracking the IP but what they can actually do apart removing it from the reviews?
There are many new ideas however the problem is back to google and money... how do you get a new, perhaps a great idea a new website with limited cash to spend to get high to get visitors in the first place if you are competing against giants with large budget? I know we all have to start somewhere and it is not going to come over night but if someone removes me from results i would really like to know why? Ok fair enought if maybe googlebot thinks our site does not offer the best info for visitors and put me back 5 pages but in my case it seems there is something google really doesnt like and no one can tell me what it might have been and what to do to change it?
We do actually employ travel writers who have been around and have experience we might not have although we have travelled a lot but yet again all costs nothing comes for free?
Dont you think it is time to put a human aspect into the search result rather than rely on a machine?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||Alex Great||1/21/11 7:20 AM|
>>>Perhaps it might be good idea that if google does chop someone off just to let them know what they have done and how to improve?
That is a good point Alex!!!
My site's rank also dropped from 3 to 2 - www.candycentral.com
Perhaps some one may have a slight idea what might went wrong
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/21/11 7:34 AM|
Im not trying to bring your website down but my point is who decided what is or isn’t thin affiliate site and i strongly disagree with that. We have put a lot of original content into our website (although im sure now day if you put a few words into google im sure you will find it again as you can only rewrite the same subject so many way without reapeting it)
By the way if you toy with PERL and MySQL should'nt you set you self a little more challenging task than a basic directory?
My point is that more content is not necessarily better content. In natural fact people do not really want to read too much. Thats why im making the point that i dont think google can only rely on a machine and algorithm to determine what is or isnt better content. At the end of the day the machine only giving point for every task fulfilled by the website ie. keywords, number of visitors, speed of the website, incoming links (although in many cases purchased especially by the large companies) and another 100's different aspect.
I know you said you are SEO consultant and im sure you must have come across in your long career some of your client having similar concept as our webiste what would you advice them to do? I know a thing or two about SEO (cant call myself Bionic) but this is puzzling me why this has happened?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/21/11 7:38 AM|
When your PR dropped did you ranking dropped as well?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||Alex Great||1/21/11 7:48 AM|
Not quite sure.
All I know I've been working hard almost 2 years and had a noticeable progress every ones in the while and now with no visible reason (for me) PR went down. I also noticed that my google back links dropped from 24 to 8 and I was wondering if that has something to do with PR
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/21/11 7:54 AM|
Yes i belive than might something to do with it. Well better to ask Bionic user as im "only" level 1.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/21/11 8:00 AM|
>>> sure you must have come across in your long career>>> some of your client having similar concept as our website
Today ... :D ... I've been working whole day long for one of our clients who happens to run one of the largest german hotel sites. I'm not doing that very lightheartedly and am sometimes tempted to tell them the same things I told you. Well, they're not "affiliates" in the strict sense of the word, but in the end of the day they use the same or a similar database as all of these sites do, basically producing duplicated content. They're also trying to tackle with that problem by writing own texts for each country, city and single hotel, a never ending task, given that they have 4 million pages online.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||JohnMu||1/21/11 8:01 AM|
I understand that it's hard to build something new, and I really don't have the experience to say exactly which steps you would need to take. Our algorithms look at the bigger picture, and that is something which only you can control, and which you know best based on your experience.
For some inspiration, I found the posts by the creators of PlentyOfFish & Mingle2 quite interesting. They both used their creativity to get into a market that was tied down with big players who were spending a lot of money, and both managed to make it quite far. You can find some of their stories at http://mingle2.com/blog/view/how-i-built-mingle2 & http://plentyoffish.wordpress.com/2006/06/14/how-i-started-an-empire/ ... Obviously you can't just copy that, but maybe it'll give you some ideas :-)
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/21/11 8:23 AM|
Im not sure if the 2 examples you have sent me are the best . First of all the second guy openly admits exchanging links with everyone and anyone (thought that was strictly against google guidlines?)
Secondly yes he has started back in 2001 when the market was fairly open to new things.
Yes it is hard to build something new and we have spend a lot of time, effort and money and we are prepared to do more and spend more as i still believe the concept is good and the our aim market is not too saturated compare to dating sites where now days you can just buy a script and off you trot!
Any comment of the closed down discussion you have sent me? Is google really fair and objective or are they just too big to care?
Any ideas where i can get any answers to what might have happened what what can be done (apart applying for reconsideration)
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/21/11 8:29 AM|
And im sure your hotel client have a large budget to work with... all them need a few writers each writing about 200 words about one hotel... each write up will cost them about 3 euro (may be possible a little less for bulk discount) so we are at 12 million.... where the hell im going to get that sort of money from? I know! i will ask my bank manager im sure he will be very accomodation!
Any other better ideas you might have had for them?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||kd1987||1/21/11 8:49 AM|
Littletraveller, you might be right, am not SEO guy, am just a wanna-be XD
one of my friend has said the same thing, they are optimizing travels and tours website here in UK but, they all are stuck since 17th Jan.
This is fun!
Actually, when you mentioned about travelsupermarket, I checked the website pull up on Google, they are not on 1st page anyways...
but, its a big brand, thanks to their ads on tube and other tfl services...
However, I do see that you haven't done proper tag building and meta tags writing is poor, get it cleared, I think you should be alright :)
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||kd1987||1/21/11 8:51 AM|
sorry for double posts
'Any ideas where i can get any answers to what might have happened what what can be done (apart applying for reconsideration)'
Reconsideration is to be done when your site is banned. But, since it is atleast coming on Google, reconsideration will be waste of time.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/21/11 9:16 AM|
The meta i have changed since just to bloody work out what i have done wrong but it seems in not the only one in the travel in the uk with the same problem.
My point with travel supermarket is they are in principal only a thin affiliate site without much real content to offer just a big budget behind them...
How can one make a first page without any content as according to google quality output only pages with good content can make it to the first page? For example in my key terms on the first page are 3 articles from guardian etc which ok fair enough but unfortunately they are dated one from 2008 ad the other 2002???? Hardly up to date new but because guardian is high power website google takes it as most relevant?
We all know that travel supermarket is most probably just buying high quality links which is of course shiffing them up.
Us on small budeget we cant get those and again we are back to IS IT FAIR? or it is just who pays more on google gets more?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/21/11 9:21 AM|
It does say if your ranking dropped dramaticaly then to write them so it seems at present time it is the only option however not the prefered one. Maybe i will get an answer and maybe "the mighty god" will tell me what to do...
Ill be glad to hear any other ideas...
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||SteveF55||1/21/11 4:17 PM|
I am sure that many people will sympathise with the position that you find yourself in. Dropping positions is never a nice feeling, and it can obviously have a huge impact on the earning potential of your website - especially if you are heavily dependent on organic search for visitors. However, I am confident a large number of individuals will have faced similar challenges in the past and subsequently produced a better website as a result.
Try and take a step back for a moment and think about the core changes you could make to differentiate your travel site from others. I have often cast envious eyes on companies with a larger marketing spend than my own, but soon remember that most of my favourite websites were started with little or no budget. Most of these expanded through the clever use of content, and are continuing to do so to the current day. You may be surprised at just how many very skilled writers are willing to write guest features for free, too. Many graduates, for example, are only too happy to allocate some of their time to writing activities if it means that they get a chance to bolster their writing portfolio.
I hope that this helps, and good luck with the site!
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||msoon2k||1/21/11 9:56 PM|
This thread is super interesting.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/22/11 1:44 AM|
Im glad you like it perhaps you would like to voice opinion on the matter??
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/22/11 1:52 AM|
Thank you for your reply. Well its all easier said than done. As we know all programming services are rather expensive. Our website is not off the shelf code like any e-shop or dating site this is made to measure code and any changes (especially core changes) will be rather expensive.... now question do you actually pump more money into it and hope google might like it and will not chop you off again?
My problem is that i dont even know what i have done wrong more how to you rectify it??
In terms of free writing... im not sure if you have done something like that yourself but from my experience any free bees and not worth the hustle. we are aiming for quality not quantity but i suppose maybe we should concentrate for quantity not so much for quality??
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||msoon2k||1/22/11 4:11 AM|
Littletraveller: i have already voiced enough. My site got hit, same as yours. No matter what I say, it's not going to get better, so i'd rather just stay quiet and watch. Google's just very VERY picky now.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/22/11 6:45 AM|
>>> i'm sure your hotel client have a large budget to work with.
You bet they have ;-)
I didn't - but again was tempted to tell them to close all pages for single hotels to the bots so as to reduce the immensely inflated amount of pages and repetitive content (that can only be "noise" for the search engines) in favour of cleverly mashed hotel listing pages and well written city and country pages.
Back to your initial question of "what have I done to deserve de-ranking" ...
It's not that you need to have done something wrong, it could well be that all comes down to the things you've not done whilst your competitors have done something. Rankings seem to be calculated not by site but by keyword or by keyword set ("semantic cloud"), so if the whole environment of thousands of hotel sites has changed over time and recalculation of rankings is done at some point in time, positions on the SERPs could suddenly change without a site having done something in the meantime - it's just that the environment has changed and rankings get adapted to that new environment. It's a bit like with biological evolution - either you adapt to outside changes and evolve - or you don't evolve and die out.
Look at the following graph, that intends to show something like a "search engine score" for a couple of sites, your site being sit X and the others the ones of competitors of yours (mind that this graph showing four sites only is extremely simplistic in comparison to reality where sites involved go into the tenthousands):
1. Situation in which you still rank well:
# X #
# X # #
# X # #
2. Situation after a while when you suddenly don't rank well anymore:
# X # #
# X # #
# X # #
# X # #
See how that could work now? You haven't done anything wrong, in fact you haven't done anythingat all, you haven't applied any changes, your "search engine score" has remained the same, yet the whole sorroundings have changed daramtically, and the day a recalculation is done for that environment ("hotel sites") you suddenly loose all your rankings without there being any penalty or devaluation of your site or anything the like.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/22/11 9:41 AM|
I cant agree with you. We have done many changes, updates, new articles, new destinations you name it yes pages which are (excuse my language) s..t are still there they are purposly created website to target certain keywords and in many times they only have a search box on index page which is search any affiliate can get. A lot of the time the domains are owner by the same company only to target different key words and they are buying more links... I could give you loads of examples especially in travel industry...
Ok lets say i have not done enought they i would see a drop of 5 pages for augment sake but our page especially index has suddenly disappeared.
All i would like from google to tell webmasters if something like this happens why it has happened. It is like sacking someone from work... you cannot suck them without good and explained reason? Don’t you agree?
Question.. do you think that the large site like expedia or hotels offer better offers to the customer that my website does?
As you know the xml feeds allows you to construct your own website from the feeds provided and the price of your website is exactly the same as on theirs... as a matter of fact our website offers or advice that large companies when it comes to family hotels as we actually research them manually and see which once have what facilities for kids and families?
When we ask our writers to write about certain destination we do not tell them to repeat this key word 4 time and this 3 times and this must be at the end and at the beginning of the text etc.... we ask them to write what the feel and whats thier experience but website who do repeat the words do get the ranking. Itis me who is doing it wrong or Googlebot?
Thats why i have suggested that google should not solely rely on googlebot to determine which content is good or not? At the end of the day they are making billions each month so not like they dont have enough resources to do that.
It is only a question of time when Google buys Facebook just to make sure they are still the mighty god in the internet world.
As said previously what other global company has 80% dominancy on a market?
Ps: if you would tell your hotel client to scrap the all thing you will be soon out of job....
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/22/11 9:43 AM|
Sitting on the fence hey??? Well hope you have a good view and dont fall off after sitting there too long, you never know what the mighty god might do!
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/22/11 10:01 AM|
>>> do you think that the large site like expedia or hotels offerNo, not necessarily ... still:
1. They were there first
2. They are immensely popular (in terms of links, mentions, buzz on facebook / twitter, and the like)
These are sites that Google needs (!) to list because the user expects to find them, so the situation of those sites is completely different from the one yours lamentably is in.
They don't, I mean that's exactly what they do: they're tapping human intelligence by looking at links, mentions and buzz and user behaviour to determine not what is good, but what is seen as good by the majority of users. It's also not only a question of whether something is "good" or not, but of whether it's popular or not. I've always said Google is not a search engine but a popularity engine ...
I don't think even they could? It may well be the other way around some day *G*
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||mike98756231||1/22/11 11:16 AM|
Could you set up some kind of forum or vistor reviews type action to help get content?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/22/11 11:17 AM|
1. They were there first - yes no doubt about that but as mentioned they do not necessarily offer better information or better price than a small website with limited budget.
2. They are immensely popular (in terms of links, mentions, buzz on facebook / twitter, and the like) - of course they do and at the end of the day it all comes down to a budget to have someone on the computer 24/7 to writer twitter, facebook etc...
Of course they need them they are sending big money on adwords!
and we come back to the catch 22 as only the popular pages will most probably get popular and once you are popular you can get more popular and hog the 1st page of google and get more visitors. The once who and on the 4th page will not be so popular as hardly ever will be as according to you only the popular once will get ranking...
If it is popularity how can you get popular if you are not popular in the first place? They only way to pay for adwords but who can afford it with prices per click so massively inflated!
I still think they eventually will. Facebook is gaining too much momentum and taking some powers off the mighty god. Once Facebook goes public which will happen then google will but at least 40% if not more.
I have never heard about someone sorting the results manually but than again im not Bionic webmaster.
As far as i know they program googlebot to do what they tell him to do. Dont get me wrong i think it is very sophisticated machine but at the end of the day it is only a machine and cannot see who it can determine if one or the other article is easy to read or informative. The only way is, by number of links, number of keys words, the placement of keywords etc... not if the article is complete non sence or written in spanglish!
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||ZOMDir||1/22/11 11:25 AM|
Great discussion. You are focussing in the discussion on content only, but Google seems to use many aspects to find out the quality of a page. Last year it seems that the focus of Google was on speed. Well if you use a tool like tools*pingdom*com you will see that your site is very slow (at least at the moment I tested it). Compare this with the site of Luzie (www*newdy*org) and you will see that that site if very fast. If you use a tool like validator*w3*org you will see the quality of your HTML code, which is not optimal.
May be you should focus on content and accessibility. Because the better the accessibility of a webpage the better humans have access to your content (and googlebot might understand what is actually written on that page).
Goog luck and best regards,
Hans - websitequality*zomdir*com
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||mike98756231||1/22/11 11:30 AM|
"Facebook is gaining too much momentum and taking some powers off the mighty god. Once Facebook goes public which will happen then google will but at least 40% if not more."Not sure about that -can see why you might arrive at that conclusion. But things like twitter just annoy the hell out of a lot of people as there are lots of people on ther spouting on about how many times they went to the toilet in one day -who cares. I think google may well take more account of people hitting social media like buttons etc . but then I guess these black hatters can artificially manipulate that quite easily as well.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||mike98756231||1/22/11 11:32 AM|
HTML code, which is not optimal. some cms systems cause problems with that particularly these ones for ecommerce where you pay every month.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/22/11 11:50 AM|
>>> I have never heard about someone sorting the results manuallyOf course they don't ... but what they do is looking at all these popularity related signals - and that amounts to a kind of manual pre-sorting by the public ... :D
>>> ... your site is very slow
Very good hint by -ZOMdir- also! Check "Labs > Site performance" in the webmastertools.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/22/11 12:02 PM|
Yes i know for validation there are some errors but look at expedia and then have about the same amount of warnings... Same newdy has errors. i can try to remove them but according to many webmasters w3 validity is not determine aspect.
According to my google webmasters tools "On average, pages in your site take 2.0 seconds to load (updated on Jan 21, 2011). This is faster than 68% of sites." Now from my perspective thats a good going considering my site has many images to load compare to newdy's simple text with one banner.
And yes i would love to have a dedicated quad core server with all the essential but same old same old back to money side! Not exactly cheap at over 2K a year non managed dedicated quality server!
Thing is the same website has been running on the same CMS quite well doing a lot of things which are allowed to do and writing new stuff etc.. but been dropped and a few days later im still no closer to WHY?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/22/11 12:04 PM|
But again it is the catch 22 where you cant get up there unless you are already pupular? So if it is popularity engine how do you get there in the first place apart paying big money for different sort of advertising?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/22/11 12:07 PM|
I have alway been for good old static html but in now days static pages cannot make at all so cms is the way now. Our system is purposly build CMS with many possibilities but all comes at a price of course.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/22/11 12:08 PM|
>>>Very good hint by -ZOMdir- also! Check "Labs > Site performance" in the webmastertools.I have looked at it all so far but no closer to any major reason for this massive drop.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||ZOMDir||1/23/11 10:49 AM|
My conclusion so far is that nobody has a good explanation why there was a massive drop. I think you have to live with that. Several people have been looking at your site and gave some suggestions to improve your site. May be you should not try to justify your site but look at the facts.
To come back to speed. tools.pingdom.com stated that your site needs 11 seconds to load, even worse http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/ is talking about 30 seconds download time. So I can understand that people will find you site not usefull because it will not load in a few seconds. See also this report: http://www.akamai.com/html/about/press/releases/2009/press_091409.html If Google can choose from expedia.com (less than 1 second to load according to tools.pingdom.com) and your site they will of course choose for Expedia.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||mike98756231||1/23/11 11:26 AM|
well like most things with seo there is much contrast in views about how much page speed counts in terms of where your site ranks in search. Although from a users point of view if a site takes ages to load then one might just move to the next site on the list
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||mike98756231||1/23/11 11:28 AM|
Further to zomdir I find no one ever has a goode xplanation of anythinga s no one really knows naymore than anyone else google are slways tweaking their game and so its only amatter of opinion based on experience.
There are even some who argue the acs ethat split etsting is used and that p1 on page 1 may be for one ste of factors and p 3for another -not sure I buy taht one but who knows.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/23/11 11:59 AM|
Thanks for your reply. Im not trying in any way to compare myself to expedia. I have just run the the test on for the website and it might not be the fastest but as previously mentioned the load time is faster that 68% that other websites.
I have run the test to my direct competitors and their load time is ever longer.
Of course many people i know have looked at the website and never said it will take forever to load and of course this is directly dependent on the speed of the internet. Even if i clear my cache and load my site again it probably takes about 2sec to load. The fact is it not on dedicated server does not help but who can afford it at the price for dedicated server.
The minimum speed of internet people get in the uk now days is 500kps.
I can analyse links, speed etc... to competitors websites(not talking expedia or any other gians just same concept and same size websites).... but the at the end of the day it seems that ALL SEO consultants are simply just guessing what to exactly do and they have not a clue what to do in cases like this.
So far i have analysed all suggested this and compared to the websites which are ranking cannnot see the reason for this sudden and massive drop.
No one can tell me that other 1000 or more websites in my key terms have better content or speed or are more relevant to the key word (again not aiming for the top keywords)
As mentioned there are pages on the 1st page which are articles dated from 2002 which are hardly the LATEST news the only difference is that the article is on well google ranked newspaper website?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/23/11 4:24 PM|
>>> ... cannnot see the reason for this sudden and massive drop.
I think you're still too concentrated on your own site and don't really grasp what it means to move inside this whole thing that I called the "online hotel environment". You're competing with the big players, with people that spend tens of millions (of whatever, dollars, euro, sterling, you name it) to gain positions on the SERPs - any movement that they make will have an impact on your site's performance in the search engines, regardless of what you do or don't do.
(and don't complain about the big money that makes more money - didn't you know capitalism worked just this and no other way? *G*)
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/24/11 1:33 AM|
I need to concentrate on my site and need to find out what i have done wrong as withyout that i cannot fix it??? I have to analyze competitors website however so far in many cases i have not find anyhting what might be superlative to mine. Im only comparing it to the similar websites to ours. Im not in any way trying to beat the big player and only aiming for lower popular keywords but my point even if you concentrate on neche market and develop a great site with a lot of info in most case it will still not help you to beat the big players even if you do have better info for users in that perticular field as google still takes them more popular as they are more popular in the first place?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/24/11 1:57 AM|
Also any large company has a complaint department if you are not happpy with services etc. but in therms of the mighty god considering the size and influence of the company you do not have any complaint department or any help line and they dont have anyone to aswer to???
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||seo101||1/24/11 2:01 AM|
"complaint department if you are not happpy with services etc"BUT, Google do not provide any sort of service to you. They have no obligation to webmasters.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/24/11 2:03 AM|
>>> and need to find out what i have done wrong as withyout that i cannot fix it?As I said, I don't believe you've done something wrong in the first place. I've seen that a thousand times now, sites get de-ranked without having done wrong, sometimes I even think that's the life cycle of any weak site ... (weak in the sense of lack of external signals of popularity)
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/24/11 2:04 AM|
>>> >>> "complaint department if you are not happpy with services etc"D*** right.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/24/11 2:22 AM|
I cannot accept that i have not done anything wrong i must have done. Google bot is only a machine which is acting on instruction. And according to googlebot my site is not up to scratch and not as good as other 1000's or more pages which i cannot understand and cannot agree with.
Thats why i would like google to offer webmasters service to when something like this happens they can understand the decision and try to fix it and improve quality next time.
Google has thier guidelines and as any other company if one break guidelines and they exclude a user from whatever service (ie SERP is in principal is a service) a company must explain why this has happened and why they have been excluded from the service. I believe this is in many countries by LAW.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||mike98756231||1/24/11 8:57 AM|
little traveller - the world is not a level playing field-just look at the current economic climate and what bakers and maps and people at the top of councils get away with whilst everyone else would end up in shit for it.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||seo101||1/24/11 10:29 AM|
"they exclude a user from whatever service (ie SERP is in principal is a service)"If you think Google is providing you with a service, and you are unhappy with that service, then you should try and ask them for a refund.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||mike98756231||1/24/11 10:35 AM|
The only paid service google provide you with is adwords or checkout via fees. Even then there is no telephone number to contact them if you have a problem why I only use paypal.
google make their money from adwords not organic listings
so im sure theyd be helpful with that
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/24/11 11:16 AM|
lets say for agument sake 50% of webmasters would stop googlebot to index their pages via robot.txt. Only then will google do somehting to acctualy get webmasters back on board. In the raundabout way google needs webmasters for placing googleadsence add on thier websites. Also ever webmaster sign up to tools and places the code on thier website to track all possible aspects of visitors coming in and out. How else do you think google is able to do all these analytics about your website?
Unfortunately google has 80% share on the search market therefore they can afford not to give a s..t. If yahoo and bing gain more of the share on this market im sure the attitude of google would change.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||mike98756231||1/24/11 11:42 AM|
Unfortunately google has 80% share on the search market therefore they can afford not to give a s..t.Dangerous game that even if you are in control
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||mike98756231||1/24/11 11:51 AM|
But its similar to microsoft-some wood argue there are better os's than windows. many prefer amc -but you check availability and price of mac software.
Mozilla is probably better then IE but every new pc is bundled with Ie only techies know any better and some business people.
Everyone uses google to search so everyone concentrates on optimising for google. But the thing is more an dmor ecompanies are going to go abck to website bing no more than flag flying and return to traditional sale methods of teh big boys who can afrod adevrtisng on tv to become a household name will do just that get people to remember the url
respected brand etc again-links sadly dont meen quality sadly neither odes PR and sadly neither does where you rank in search why becaus eits been manipulated beyond belief> teh entire ethos doenst reallyw ork in teh commercialised world.
If it did google wouldnt need to ahve a spam team
enjoy my typos
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||littletraveller||1/24/11 12:16 PM|
google knows they are not in any way to be catched by other search engines...
Thats what a mean bout the linking strategies.. the bigger boys who have enought resourses can buy quality links and pay newspapers to write articles about them etc...
The somaller bos need to exchange with other smaller boys which is considered as spamming?? Where is that fair? One pays for it and the other puts work into it and then being penalized?
If i remember right microsoft got for done for it as they have provided the easly OS for free which has effected the market and they had to pay billions in damages.
This might happen to google if they abuse thier market possition.
PS Think you should run spell check before posting.... very hard to understand
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||mike98756231||1/26/11 5:54 AM|
like I said before the entire ethos doesn't really work in the commercialised world.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||mike98756231||1/26/11 5:55 AM|
his might happen to google if they abuse thier market possition.google earthgate ring any bells?
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||mike98756231||1/26/11 5:56 AM|
lol the typos tell me a story about who I am dealing with by their reaction to them. How do you know I'm not dsylexic (I'm not by the way)
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||luzie||1/26/11 7:41 AM|
>>> Where is that fair?
Of course it isn't fair - but who said it was or who said it had to be, economy is not about fairness in the first place. Is it fair that Bill Gates has everything and I have nothing?
Wrong concept paid for I'd say? And that leads me back to where I always were: Reliance on organic search traffic is dangerous and will eventually be desastrous.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||mike98756231||1/26/11 11:31 AM|
PPC is expensive though and generally gets a lower CTR. Now do you know the reason why this is... Well I'll tell you.
Lets say for example you were Writing a CV or resume and you'd job hopped a lot so you wanted to make your dates of employment less blatant on the page
guess what you do -put them on the right hand side of the page -because the first read is a skim read and its how the brain works and how in the western world we are taught to write.
Its the same with PPC being down the right hand side nothing to do with trust as some will suggest.
Another popular misconception is that people look at images first -they don't they see /read text first again to do with how the brain works.
|Re: Has there been an algorithm undate on the 17th of January???||mike98756231||1/26/11 11:35 AM|
An iteresting experiment would be to compare CTR with a ppc ad at the top of the screen in shaded area agianst one down the right -p1
The fact that the one at the top is shade will reduce its CTR as well as the human brain is taught to read black on white -this is related to the entire thing of serif and san serif fonts.
Using the resume example again -want your CV to be ignored and not read then put headings in white text on a black background.
Now this one many just be my own idiosincary but I dont click on p1 page one that often I tend to click on p3 or p4 fist -dont know why.